Saved_JW

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Posts by Saved_JW

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  68

  My Explanation of God.

  by LAWHFol in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am a theist & this is my version of god.. instead of using the term god, i'll use "unseen presence".. this unseen presence, is perfect in every way.

  this presence is so perfect it can seem a bit boring.this perfection can be seen in the laws of science, for example gravity.. it does not sometimes work, depending on the mood of some one in the sky, it always works, perfectly.

  gravity does not get angry and decide to stop working, and cause the death of innumerable living beings, it just works, through thick or thin, it is reliable.. what allows this unseen presence to remain perfect, is the fact that it does not act based on emotion, or strategy or regret.. it acts based on law, mathematical law.. this unseen presence is not partial to jews or muslims or jw's it is completely impartial at all times, to everything that exists.

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  Saved_JW

  What your explaining is essentially Ancient Pantheism. What they called "Nature" is what you would call "god"

  Nothing new
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  17

  The Appeal and Draw of the Watchtower

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i first left the watchtower organization in 2008, a flood of emotions came back to me.

  betrayal, anger, resentment, deep depression from the relationships lost.

  emotions seemed to guide my viewpoint of others as well.

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  Saved_JW

  When I first left the Watchtower Organization in 2008, a flood of emotions came back to me. Betrayal, anger, resentment, deep depression from the relationships lost. Emotions seemed to guide my viewpoint of others as well. Why would people join the Watchtower in the first place? Are they really that "stupid"?
  
  Well, it has been a long time since I left, and I have had more then enough time to reflect on what I think are the main draws of the Watchtower Society:
  
  Pride
  
  At its core, the Watchtower is a Man Centered religion. What I mean by this, is the theology really starts with mankind as the central aspect of everything. Salvation starts with mans effort, Jehovah reacts to circumstances created by mans will, the Watchtower is the central aspect to religious practice. Even though Jehovah is given lip service, practically speaking Man is central.
  
  This serves as the foundation for why people stay in the Watchtower in the first place. Pride.... The Watchtower may not offer financial incentives, but it does offer power and influence over others. Elders are not seen as servants under others [which is biblical] they are seen as Masters OVER others. This type of model attracts a certain type of person to advance in the pyramid of power, namely "Yes men" not humble servants. Almost like attracting flies to rotten fruit.
  
  Fear

  The Watchtower's message is historically rooted in fear. The Very "Hell Doctrine" it criticizes from the Christian faith which is rooted in fear, the Watchtower uses the same technique to retain and maintain its own followers out of fear of absolute destruction.

  This is why so many JW's have a problem telling us what they stand FOR. If you ask any average Joe on the street "What do Jehovah's WItnesses Believe?" YOu will not get an answer that talks about paradise earth, or Gods Kingdom much less a discussion of the 1914 doctrine. You will get answers that more or less tell us what they DONT believe [birthdays, holidays, flag salute, etc..]

  If you think about War Strategies, leaders understand that fear can be an excellent emotional tool for conformity, but its major downside: It does not motivate in the long term. Using fear as a tool for manipulation is only effective in short periods of time. If abused, actually does the opposite effect and causes disloyalty.
  
  Cultural

  Its of my opinion that the vast majority of Jehovah's Witness do not understand the "Why's" behind their faith. They do not understand the reasons why the Watchtower has authority.
  Lets be honest, try asking a Jehovah's Witness to explain how the Governing Body was appointed over the domestics using Daniels Prophecy without referencing WT literature.... They would have a panic attack!
  
  Many Jehovah's Witnesses are in the religion because they know nothing different. Which brings up another thing, many in the religion are not "Stupid" at all. in fact, there are very smart individuals inside. Whether its true or not makes no difference. The first thing I had to accept was that not many people care about "Truth" when presented with positions of power.
  
  Think about the business world, many people will accept promotions in spite of their loyalty to the company itself. Because the opportunity presents itself with power and influence. This may explain why its so hard to convince people in the Watchtower of the fallacious nature of what they believe, because at the end of the day, this ISNT what keeps them there in the first place.
  
  There are may other observations I have, but since this is a discussion thread, I want to hear your opinion...
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  7

  Watchtower Paralells Mormonism

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  after leaving the watchtower i had a 2 year lapse where i was studying mormonism.

  not because i believed it, but because my girlfriend at the time was one.

  i took the time to attend ward meetings with her, attend after church activities, join my in-laws for "family home evening" i was pretty much immersed in the culture.

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  Saved_JW

  Similar, but not the same. LDS have two categories. 1- Disfellowshipping 2- Excommunication
  
  Disfellowshipping involves not taking of the sacrament, whereas excommunication isn't nearly as bad as the Watchtower. It just means no "Spiritual" discussion.
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  7

  Watchtower Paralells Mormonism

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  after leaving the watchtower i had a 2 year lapse where i was studying mormonism.

  not because i believed it, but because my girlfriend at the time was one.

  i took the time to attend ward meetings with her, attend after church activities, join my in-laws for "family home evening" i was pretty much immersed in the culture.

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  Saved_JW

  After leaving the Watchtower I had a 2 year lapse where I was studying Mormonism. Not because I believed it, but because my girlfriend at the time was one. I took the time to attend Ward meetings with her, attend after church activities, join my in-laws for "Family Home Evening" I was pretty much immersed in the culture.

  Looking back, I find it amazing to behold how much the Watchtower mimmicks much of the success the LDS church has with their programs. I am going to illustrate what I believe to be successful and unsuccessful implementations of their programs:
  
  1- Family Home Evening
  
  The LDS Church has had great success at this program which essentially sets aside 1 day out of the week [Monday] where the family will get together and have a spiritual discussion, hymns and games. This has been a staple in the Church for a long time. This program I believe is one of the most important since it creates culture in the church and helps with retention. Kids growing up in this environment will have fond memories with their family which they will directly associate with the Church itself. Genius!
  
  Recently the Watchtower has changed its version of the Family Bible Study, which was largely a snorefest which only focused on studying a piece of Watchtower literature. Hardly something kids will connect with. In imitation of the LDS Church, the Watchtower is playing catch up with its new program "Family Worship Night" [Yeah that's original]
  
  After viewing some of the videos of FWN, it seems they want this program to be a little more relaxed [such as the LDS Church model] My immediate impressions is that the Watchtower is more or less forcing a model of study on its members instead of letting the family heads take charge. Another top down model of worship that I believe is destined to fail.
  
  2- Media
  
  The LDS Church are masters of media and propaganda. They are always at the forefront of this. Over the past few years the LDS church has rolled out numerous different campaigns, one of note would be "IM A MORMON" where they show average [and diverse] groups of people on the job, in the home, and at church. They want the average joe to connect with them as "normal" people, and at the end they make the big reveal.... IM A MORMON.
  
  The Watchtower over the past couple of years has had to play catch up. JW Broadcasting, Cartoons, Apps etc.. all tools individuals have used to connect the modern world to the Watchtower Organization. This is one area which I believe the WT is having success with. Since the death of Ted Jarecz,[or however you spell his name] the old rugged Watchtower model of discipleship is gone away with. It will be interesting to see how the WT develops its own propaganda in the future.
  
  3- Relief Society
  
  The LDS Church has a womens organization called the "Relief Society" generally purposed to be the charitable arm of the Church. Members of this organization are encouraged to visit the sick, depressed, and other active members for encouragement and assistance. This again is a huge success for the church. Again, it keeps retention low, and encourages all members [even women] to have an active authoritative role in the organization.

  This is one area where the WT Fails miserably. The closest they have is the Elder Shepherding Call. Which again, is a completely separate category. The WT really has no outlet for women in the organization that encourages this type of fellowship.
  
  4- Apostolic Authority
  
  The LDS Church prides itself on having the only living prophet along with 12 disciples living on the earth. This is a much needed "X" factor that gives them an illusion of authority that can be trusted by the rank and file.
  
  The Watchtower has always struggled with this authority factor over the years, not quite knowing what to do with itself. On one hand they are the chosen "Faithful and discreet slave" class of men. But what SPIRITUAL authority do they have?
  Well they like to play both cards:
  
  On one hand, they play the humble, ever so human, bible interpreter that is no more special then you and me.
  On the other hand [when convenient] they play the spiritually anointed, Kingdom Priest who is given all earthly authority over the domestics.
  
  This plays on the mind of the Jehovah's Witness and they can switch between any of the view they want depending on the circumstance before them. Whats the bottom line? Well... The Watchtower has an identity issue with its authority. They are not prophets nor do they claim to be, they are not popes, essentially they are dealing with individuals in the Organization who only accept their authority based on a thinly veiled emotional acceptance of it.
  
  This causes huge problems when JW's and non-jws alike do not agree with a particular interpretation of scripture. The question will naturally arise: On what basis should I accept this?
  
  The Watchtower I believe is slowly moving towards the LDS model of authority. More recently they have used such glorious terms as: "Spiritual Mother" or "Glorious Ones" to refer to themselves. You will notice, as Jesus diminishes in their view of his divinity, so does the Governing Body Increase in its own authority.
  
  5- Authority in the limelight
  
  An extension of the previous point. The LDS Church has always kept its leaders in the spotlight. When I go to an LDS Ward, its not uncommon to see the "Hierarchy chart" of all the "Apostles" and prophets shrined in every activity room in the church. This serves as a continual reminder to all church members of who is in charge.
  
  The Watchtower has attempted to take the path of humility by not having their leaders in the spotlight. Up until the last few years, the only authority was the voice behind the Watchtower which more or less resembled the Wizard of OZ. Just an authoritative voice behind the curtain. More recently however, the Watchtower has picked up on the LDS Church cues and put the Governing Body in the center of attention with JW Broadcasting, constant streams of videos of special talks, annual meetings, etc... Its Governing Body 24/7!
  
  There are much more similarities that I could mention. Perhaps you guys have noticed some?
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  29

  Disaster Demonstration in Kingdom hall

  by Newly Enlightened in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwr9w_i02di.

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  Saved_JW

  ROFL. I am 99.9% Certain this is my old Kingdom Hall in Deer Park, WA!! Wow
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  32

  Jeb Bush would kill a baby !

  by Simon in

  1. social
  2. current

  ok, specifically he was talking about hitler.

  apparently he was asked whether, if he could go back in time, he would kill him when he was a baby.. and he said "hell yeah !".

  but still wtf?

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  Saved_JW

  lol, How is this different then our current president who endorses and promotes the killing of babies via Planned Parenthood.
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  5

  Discussion with a Pioneer: CONCLUSION

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  deity of jesus.

  the final part of our discussion took us back to the very beginning where he was asking my christian friend a question about the trinity.

  i wasn't convinced that david received an answer that was satisfying [essentially its a mystery, god is too big to understand etc..] i wanted to talk about that more.

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  Saved_JW

  Deity of Jesus

  The final part of our discussion took us back to the very beginning where he was asking my Christian friend a question about the Trinity. I wasn't convinced that David received an answer that was satisfying [Essentially its a mystery, God is too big to understand etc..] I wanted to talk about that more.

  [me] Ok David, If you don't mind, I would like to talk about the Divinity of Jesus one more time, you seemed a little confused before.
  You said that the "Trinity" doctrine was very confusing to you. Do you mind telling me what YOU believe the doctrine of the Trinity is.
  
  [David] Well again, I do believe its confusing, and Jehovah isn't a God of confusion. And your right, I prob. will butcher an official definition. But as Far as I understand its "Three in one"
  
  [Me] I think that's a good start but yes, there is a little more to it then that. I want to address your concern about Jehovah not being a God of confusion. I agree with that. However there are some things that I find in scripture that I simply cannot understand, yet I accept them because its revealed by scripture. Wouldn't you agree?
  
  [David] ummm... I think so.

  
  [Me] Well lets start with Jehovah having "No beginning and no end" can you wrap your mind around God not having a beginning?
  

  [David] Oh I see what you mean, No I cannot
  
  [me] lol, me neither, but I accept that because scripture reveals that being the case. The same is true with Jesus being Divine. This doctrine isn't a result of quibbling scholars in a council who just made it up. The debate centers around revelation found in scripture. I can give you an example if you want.
  
  [Daivd] Ok sure..
  
  [Me]
  
  John 12:37-42
  
  

  37Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: “Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”h 39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:40“He has blinded their eyes and nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”i

  41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

  42Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

  [ME] Ok, Jesus just finished doing miracles in front of the Pharisees, yet in spite of this. THEY DID NOT BELEIVE. John [the writer of this passage] said that this unbelief was actually a prophecy from Isaiah. Who is it that Isaiah said he Saw in the vision in vs. 41?
  
  [Daivd] .....Jesus
  
  [ME] ok, in your New World Translation, it has a parallel passage in the center reference, what Scripture does it List?
  
  [Daivd] It says: Isaiah 6:1..."In the year that King Uz·zi′ah died,+ I saw Jehovah sitting on a lofty and elevated throne,+ and the skirts of his robe filled the temple.
  
  [Again I let David just sit there for a moment to soak in the information]
  
  [Me] This is just one of many examples that I can show you. But here you have Isaiah Seeing Jehovah in the Temple, and John later on, speaks about this very same vision telling us that this is Jesus. I know what you may be thinking. How can Jesus and Jehovah be the same thing? Does the bible contradict itself?
  
  The problem is the Watchtower has told you that Jehovah=God the Father. This is not exclusively the case. Jehovah comes from YHWH which is a REPRESENTATION of Gods name, It isn't a literal name of God. Since you cannot pronounce it. To make a long story short the bible often times uses ATTRIBUTES of God to identify Him. [God is rest, God is salvation, God is War etc..] Those attributes on any given time become his name, since God cannot be identified by any one attribute [as is the case with Pagan gods]
  
  So when you see Jesus literal name [YESHUA or Joshua] His name means= God is our Salvation. So God in the form of Jesus becomes our Salvation.
  
  [Daivd] Wow, ok this is a little much. How can Jesus be Jehovah? I see specific instances in scripture where Jesus prays to the father? What is he, talking to himself?
  
  [Me] Ok, what you are talking about is a doctrine called "Modalism" this is the belief that "The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit" exist in different Modes at different times. This is not what I believe either. I believe that Jesus is different in person from God the Father, but same in Essence/nature.
  
  [Daivd] Ok, but then you have scriptures where Jesus says the Father is Greater then I.
  
  [Me] So you would say that Greater=Better or superior in essence?
  
  [David] Yes I would
  
  [Me] David are you "Better" then your wife?
  
  [Daivd] lol, no....
  
  [Me] ok...are you "Greater then your wife"?
  
  [Daivd] Well, in a sense I have a greater role....ok I see where your going with this.
  
  [ME] yep.. Both you and your wife are Humans by nature. IN no way are you BETTER then your wife. But you are given a role that is greater in position. IN other words you are accountable to God for how you treat her. You are to put HER needs ahead of your own. This is your responsibility to lead as Jesus would lead.
  
  The same is true with Jesus, he took upon flesh, in the form of a slave, lower then the angels. His position with God the father was in submission to His will. But in Hebrews it shows us that after his death, he was lifted up to a position greater then the angels. where his name was above all names.
  
  At least you can see now that there is a lot more to this belief then a casual dismissal [as the Watchtower portrays]
  
  [David] Ok but what about the scripture that says that Jesus was the FIRSTBORN of all creation.
  
  [Me] Ok, well I have got to go, but I can tackle this one really quick. First comes a misunderstanding or misapplication of the word "Firstborn"
  
  You tell me, who was the firstborn: Jacob or Esau?
  
  [Daivd] Esau was.....wait Jacob was because he received the birthright.
  
  [Me] Ok your right in both instances... Esau was the LITERAL firstborn [as in first out of the womb] but Jacob received the right of firstborn [as in Preeminence] or above his family.
  
  So HOW you use the word First born really depends on the context. This brings us back to making sure you understand the context of the verse you are reading. Turn to Colossians 1 and here you have an example of Jesus being called "Firstborn"
  
  Colossians 1:15:
  
  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

  [me] So here you have Paul exhausting the Greek language to describe the NATURE of Jesus. He starts with telling us he is the "image" of God. The greek word essentially means "The same as" .. then Paul says he is the "Firstborn"
  
  Now we have to ask the question: Does this means Firstborn as in creation, or firstborn as in Preeminence?
  
  Go ahead and read versus 18....
  
  [David] Ok I see what you mean.. but the NWT says all "OTHER" things.
  
  [ME] I want you to read your Kingdom Interlinear Translation in your own time and verify if the "Other" appears in the greek. You can do that in your own time. But I will say this. By inserting the word other, the translator would essentially be changing the entire meaning of this passage to where it would not make sense in its context.
  
  For example: The declaration of independence says: "All men are created equal" .... do you think by saying "All [other] men are created equal" that would change the meaning??
  
  [Daivd] ok ill check it out....
  
  
  ***We ended our conversation by us exchanging phone numbers. David said he would do some research on all the points discussed. We both agreed that a mutual understanding of each others positions are actually a good thing. because when he goes from door to door, having that understanding would make him more effective at communicating and relating to them.
  We shook hands and told him if he has anymore questions, please call**
  
  
  My final thoughts on the entirety of this discussion was somewhat positive. I never know how a person will respond to new information. I know this for sure, He has been presented with information that will fester in his mind for years to come. What he does with that really depends on how far entrenched he is in the Watchtower. I am fully convinced that membership in the Watchtower is an emotional issue at its core. Be that by Fear, or by obligation to family. No amount of facts will separate that emotion. I don't know David's individual circumstances. And none of us will know if something happens in the years to come which will prompt him to actually research these issues further. But my job is done. I was loving, honest, and open with david the entire time.
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  4

  Discussion with a Pioneer Pt. 3

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  [cont...] at this point david and i had developed a great rapport.

  not everything we talked about was "theology" .

  i think its important to develop some sort of friendship along the way, in doing so, he was able to relax and not be on guard the entire time.

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  Saved_JW

  I agree with you. At the end of the day it all boils down to TRUST. Right now he Trusts the GB more then he does the bible. My only job is to present truth, not convince him of anything. In my mind, I have done my job. what he does with that is between him and God.

  Last year I spoke with a Ministerial Servant at a district convention and we had a very long talk about much of the same subjects. I befriended him and kept in touch. Long story short, he no longer believes in the Watchtower.

  He is still in the organization for now, but he is trying to find a way to escape. You never know what will happen with these little encounters. I have had dozens upon dozens. not all of them end up a success
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  4

  Discussion with a Pioneer Pt. 3

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  [cont...] at this point david and i had developed a great rapport.

  not everything we talked about was "theology" .

  i think its important to develop some sort of friendship along the way, in doing so, he was able to relax and not be on guard the entire time.

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  Saved_JW

  [cont...] At this point David and I had developed a great rapport. Not everything we talked about was "Theology"

  I think its important to develop some sort of friendship along the way, in doing so, he was able to relax and not be on guard the entire time. I asked him about his family, why he was a Jehovah's Witness. I wanted him to focus on HIS beliefs, not necessarily the belief system he was simply repeating to me.

  For example, whenever he told me what he believed in any area of doctrine, I would reply in different ways "is that what YOU believe?"

  Its a simple reply, and something that might sound obscure, but there was a few instances where he was taken back by that question. I think that was the first time he realized that he was simply repeating information without thinking WHY.

  Our discussion then circled back to a discussion on Salvation.

  Earthly Salvation

  [me] One of the things that stood out to me as you were talking was the distinction you place on "Heavenly" and "Earthly" salvation. Do you believe those to be separate places? As if they are geographic differences in Gods Kingdom?

  [Daivd] Well, yes.. When you look at Revelation 7 there are two classes of people. The 144,000 Anointed class of Christians , and in a separate vision a "Great Crowd" of earthly followers.

  [me] ok, but what do YOU believe?

  [David] .......honestly, I don't know what to think. I thought I did, but after talking about how to interpret verses in their context, I really cant justify why the 144k should be read literally, then those same 144k should be understood to be "Symbolic Israel" , but I do see that there is a separation between the 144k and the great crowd.

  [me] I think that's fair, Just so I understand your position. You see two separate classes of Salvation in Revelation 7 because the writer says "AFTER THESE THINGS I LOOKED" in verse 9?

  [David] Yes that's would indicate a separate vision and a separate people.

  [me] you know what, I actually agree with you here. But saying they are a separate people and separate vision is a lot different then saying they are a separate class of salvation ON EARTH... wouldn't you agree?

  [David] I guess so...

  [me] Ok lets look at this "Great Crowd" are you saying that anytime you see the word "Great Crowd" this is an EARTHLY Class of salvation?

  [Daivd] Well yes...

  [Me] Would you mind reading Revelation 19:1 for me?

  [David] Reading from the NWT: "After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous."

  [At this point I just allowed David to soak in what he just read in dead silence for 1 minute....]

  [me] IF you don't mind David, I would like to tell you what I believe about Salvation, and at the same time make sense out of this verse showing the Great crowd in heaven.

  [David] Ok I am going to write this down and do some research...but go ahead....

  [me] I don't believe there is a reason to separate Heaven and Earth when it relates to Salvation. Where you draw a distinction, I don't. I believe in the future, heaven will be earth.

  [David] [David laughs.....]

  [me] Wait a second...hear me out.... How do you define "Heaven" in the first place? Do you believe its a place where people float on clouds playing harps or something like the renaissance paintings? lol

  [David] well..technically its anywhere that Jehovah resides.

  [me] Perfect, and when you read in Genesis about Adam and Eve, Jehovah resided IN THE GARDEN didn't he?

  [David] well yeah...

  [me] ok, well... cant we say that since Jehovah resided On the Earth and dwelt with Adam and Eve in the garden, that the earth would be apart of Gods Kingdom? Or in other words...Heaven?

  See, I believe that the earth will be restored just the way it was from the beginning. Read Revelation 21.. it says "The TENT of God will reside with man [on earth]"

  now this is perfectly consistent with what Jesus said "Let you will be done on earth as it is in heaven" Additionally when you read Matthew 5, Jesus does not draw a distinction between the two. In fact, he says "Blessed are the poor for theirs is the Kingdom of HEAVEN" and immediately after this.. "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the EARTH"

  When you put it all together, The evidence shows that the "Great Crowd" although separate in their distinctions and roles compared to the 144k in Gods Kingdom are still apart of Heaven. In fact, Gods kingdom is all encompassing. Earth will be made new and restored into a place where God again resides...ergo heaven.

  [Daivd] you know I have to be honest, I have never herd any Christian articulate this before. I have never herd it put this way. What your saying seems consistent with Scripture but honestly I would have to read through everything we just read.

  [Me] And you know what, that's fine. I appreciate your honesty, the last thing I would want is for you just to accept what I am saying. These are just conclusions I have drawn from reading the scriptures and using that method of interpretation.

  Actually, in Acts 17 Paul went to the Bereans and they didn't just accept what he said either, they studied the scriptures to be sure of those things. and were commended for it.

  *****The last leg of our conversation ended with an in depth discussion on the Trinity, the toughest subject to tackle by far, but we went for it, lol. In my experience, Jehovah's Witnesses and Christians alike misrepresent or misunderstand the doctrine all together. My goal in these discussions is to first get an understanding of what the JW believes about the deity of Jesus FIRST. I never treat all JW's alike. I will conclude this discussion in part 4
• 
  5

  Discussion with a Pioneer Pt. 2

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  [cont..] our conversation outdoors then took us into the small eating area inside the grocery store.

  my friend richard had to leave, which left the conversation to just david and i. .

  discussing the anointed .

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  Saved_JW

  [Cont..] Our conversation outdoors then took us into the small eating area inside the grocery store. My friend Richard had to leave, which left the conversation to Just David and I.

  Discussing the Anointed

  At this point I asked David: "Listen there are many things that we can talk about, we have already discussed the cross versus stake, we have talked about worship emblems, but when you boil it all down, none of these topics relate to whether or not we are saved. I mean, If Jesus died on a "X" or a "T" or an upright pole makes no difference to the action on that tree.

  Maybe you will agree with me here, but maybe we should talk about something that separate's our beliefs, that deal directly with our salvation?"

  [David] Yeah I agree.

  [Me] Ok, one of the things that I think the majority of people can say when a JW comes to the door, is their familiarity with what JW's DONT believe. Such as Holidays, Birthdays, Christmas etc... However Not much is understood about what they DO believe? Matthew 24 says that the "Good News" will be preached throughout all the earth. What is that "Good News"?
  
  [David] .....hmm interesting question. Are you talking about like when somebody gets Disfellowshipped?

  [Me] No, not at all. All I am asking is, what is the POSITIVE message that you bring as a minister of the Watchtower. What is it that Seperates you as a Jehovah's Witness from everybody else?
  
  

  [David] Oh I see.. I think it would be the preaching of Gods Kingdom on the earth.

  [Me] Ok, what about it?

  [David] Well, we are required to preach Gods Kingdom on the Earth Just like Jesus did [Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven] The point is, we all have the prospect of being apart of Gods Kingdom in the near future. That's the message I bring.

  [me] ok, well how do I get into Gods Kingdom?

  [Daivd] Well it starts with Baptism. [David then gives me a JW.ORG business card]

  [Me] [I look at the business card and smile] So David..tell me [As I point to the emblem] Do you worship this emblem?

  [We both Laugh]

  [david] No.

  [me] I know I was just joking....Ok, So I have to be baptized, is that it?

  [David] Well no, its a recognition of Jehovah's purpose on the earth right now. Jesus is the ruler who has given authority to a small group of Anointed followers.

  [me] oh ok, so salvation is intertwined with recognizing Anointed leadership?

  [David] Exactly...

  [me] Your statement seemed to suggest that you follow Anointed individuals, am I correct in assuming that there are ones who you consider Christian that ARE NOT Anointed?

  [daivd] Yes, there are two classes, the Anointed 144,000 and the "Great Crowd" of other sheep.

  [me] What is the difference between those two groups of people in terms of Spirituality? Is one more enlightened then the other?

  [David] well, they are chosen by Jehovah to represent his will on the earth. They aren't the pope or a prophet, they are just normal men who study the scriptures.

  [me] ok but you said they are anointed. So there must be some spiritual difference between you and them. Do they have the Holy Spirit and you don't?

  [David] Well ... we are all "Guided by" the Holy Spirit, but we don't believe that the Holy Sprit is a person. We can be influenced by Gods Active Force.

  [me] so what your telling me is, there is no difference PRACTICALLY between somebody who IS anointed and somebody who isn't?

  [David] ........ well, no.

  [me] Ok, just so I understand your position. You are following a group of men who have no PRACTICAL spiritual authority over you, who do NOT have Gods spirit, and share no spiritual difference between you and them?

  [David] well, I think its a lot more complicated then that, but I get what you are saying. The point is, they are in a position of authority because Jesus has assigned them this role as "Faithful Servants"

  [Me] Ok this is really an important topic, because as far as I know, when the bible speaks about being "Anointed" this is directly tied into salvation. Try and track with me here ; because if your wrong about this, it has HUGE implications as regards to salvation.

  Read Romans 8. In there its very clear. You are either in the SPIRIT or in the FLESH. Those in the Spirit are Born of the Spirit, in other words, they are anointed. If you are not apart of this "Anointed" you are not Christian. What it says is "Those operating in the Flesh cannot please God, nor can they."

  Its very black and white. You either have the sprit or you don't, you are either a Christian or you aren't. Those are the only two classes I see in Scripture. What you are purposing is a third class of salvation...

  Discussion about Mediator

  At this Point David was very intrigued about learning new information on 3 classes. All of this time he had assumed that 3 classes of salvation was just a given. I mean, Revelation 7 seems to show 144,000 and a separate vision of the Great Crowd in front of the throne. This is when the discussion changed from Watchtower Dogma, to what the bible Actually says.
  
  I started to tell David how I read the bible, I said: "I have a general method of interpreting scripture, feel free to criticize my method, but I take into account a few things for interpretation:
  
  1- What is the Historical Context of the verse

  2- What is the nature of the book [Poem, song, Historical account, letter, prophecy, etc..]

  3- Any evidence of Symbolism, figures of speech, idioms, if not interpret literally
  4- Who is the Author speaking to? or what is his audience? [this can influence how you interpret the scripture]
  5- What is the immediate and surrounding context of the verse?
  
  When I interpret scripture in this way, you are much more consistent with application. For example, when reading the book of Revelation, specifically in versus 7. You have to first ask yourself "Is the number 144,000 literal or spiritual? However you answer this, you have to be consistent thought the immediate context as to how you interpret the "Great crowd"
  
  And if you do switch the interpretation, is there any evidence in the scripture itself WHY it should be switched?
  
  [David] Ok, I will have to do some research on this. I see your point.

  [me] Well, this has huge implications. Because if there is a three class system of salvation, the burden is on YOU and the Watchtower for being able to show the COVENANT of that third class from scripture.

  Whenever Jehovah speaks to his people, he always has a SIGN followed by a covenant. Noah had a covenant [I will not destroy the earth with fire] and the sign of that covenant was the rainbow; Abrahams promise was that his seed will multiply, the sign was Circumcision; Moses covenant was the law, followed by the sign of the 10 commandments; same way with Christians. We were given a new covenant by means of Jesus fulfilling the law , the sign was accompanied by his death and resurrection and the Holy Spirit dwelling in each believer.

  If it is asserted that there is a third class of Christians that can be saved, surely you should be able to point to that covenant and sign in the scripture?
  
  If you cannot do this, you are simply relying on the Authority and word of a group of men who simply SAY you have a covenant without the Holy Spirit.
  
  I hope you can see the implications of such a doctrine. If your wrong about salvation,All of your "Good Works" are meaningless. Because you are not operating in the Spirit, you are operating in the flesh as Romans 8 discusses in great detail.
  
  
  ****At this point David was writing down all of the scriptures down that we discussed. There was much more to the discussion, and I simplified most if not all of Davids comments, but at the end of the day, he was challenged. He saw the fallacious doctrines of the Watchtower. What followed was a final discussion on Jesus being God, his misunderstandings of the Trinity, and a realization of the flaws of the New World Translation. But I will save that for Part 3**