Saved_JW

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Posts by Saved_JW

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  147

  Challenge to Creationists

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in response to the 37 threads in my evolution is a fact series - see bottom of op for links - perry posted a link to an article "44 reasons why evolution isn't true".. i offered him a challenge on the thread and by pm.

  predictably he is totally ignoring it, so i am offering the challenge to any evolution-denier who thinks they have evidence to support their position.. please present one specific piece of evidence for creationism.. my task will be to refute it with evidence within 24 hours.. then i will present one piece of evidence for evolution and your challenge will be the same.. all posts must be as succinct as reasonably possible.

  entirely in your own words, without copy-paste, videos or links.. please post your interest to take part and we will set it up before the first actual post in the exchange.

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  Saved_JW

  A disclaimer before I present my evidence for Creation

  I have found that Atheists are very selective about what they consider to be evidence that would support any other worldview then the ones they presuppose. Evidence does not speak for itself, we all have bias and we all interpret evidence through the filters of our assumptions. So that what is "Reasonable" to one individual, may be unreasonable to another.

  I have many presuppositional approaches that I can demonstrate showing the rationality of an intelligence behind creation. I can also demonstrate how any worldview outside of a special creation point of view is not consistent with Science or Ethics. But I will make this post very simple and stay as close as I can to Empirical evidence as requested.
  
  EVIDENCE for INTELLIGENCE/CREATION:

  1- Information begets Information: In order for us to make use of Science as a tool, we must assume that nature can be predictable. The examined world around us works in a generally mechanical, intelligent and predictable way. This is what scientists ASSUME when they approach the scientific modem of observation and tests. In fact, this assumption of general predictability of nature is EXACTLY what you would expect in a creation model. Why? Because if we observe intelligence in nature, we can assume an intelligent designer. [Information begetting information] At the very least, this assumption is consistent with observable evidence.
  
  Science cannot assume arbitrary starting points for nature [non-intelligence] since this would automatically assume that nothing in nature can truly be predicted, since there would be ultimately no objective laws to govern nature.

  What we CAN know is that there is absolutely no existing scientific model that will demonstrate that we can get INFORMATION from NON-INFORMAITON. If we did, Atheists would be holding this up as the holy grail of its dogma. But there isn't. The only model science can use [ironically enough] is a model that assumes intelligence and universal laws.
  
  When DNA is examined, this can be examined in terms of intelligence, since information is passed from one generation to another. Predictable models of information are taken away from the DNA to generate characteristics from one generation to another. Dog breeders do this all the time.

  DNA is a code of information passed down from parent to child. Its predictable and generally stable. This is exactly what we would expect to observe if we assume INTELLIGENCE behind creation. Again, the evidence of nature always shows us that Information begets information, consistent with the assumptions of creationism.
  
  This means the burden of proof/evidence falls on the one who claims there is no intelligence behind creation. Show me a model that shows this is true?
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  17

  Is reasoning with a JW the answer?

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i first left the watchtower society, i can remember being very eager to learn new information, especially information which pertained to discrediting the watchtower organization.

  i called it "the cage stage" .

  this excitement and newfound change in worldview completely rocked my world.

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  Saved_JW

  When I first left the Watchtower Society, I can remember being very eager to learn new information, especially information which pertained to discrediting the Watchtower Organization. I called it "The Cage Stage"

  This excitement and newfound change in worldview completely rocked my world. As if though I had found a treasure hidden right under my nose. This newfound excitement transpired into the way I talked with Jehovah's Witnesses. I had assumed that just because I had information that was based in fact, they would in fact respond with the same level of excitement as me. If the truth stands on its own merit, there is nothing that can go against it!

  Or...So I thought anyways.
  
  On the surface the Watchtower Organization creates a culture that is very black and white. Being "In the truth" is not a matter of feeling or conjecture, its simply a matter of "fact" [or so says the Watchtower] The same goes with any doctrine that comes down the pipeline of information disseminated from the Watchtower. Very rarely do you see doctrines that are in the grey. It either is, or isn't.

  For those of us who have left the Watchtower, this type of mentality can leave us to assume that the way we talk to Jehvoah's Witnesses should mirror that of the Watchtower. Because after all, this is the language that we know and are familiar with.

  I have learned a lot in the past 8 years, and the more I interact with JW's, I have come to realize that the core of the individual belief system is rooted in Fear. Which is ultimately an expression of emotion. I like to call it Fear feigning as facts

  Fear is a powerful manipulative tool the Watchtower uses to ultimately gain control over the actions of its adherents. The one major weak point of using fear is that in many cases, it does not gain the heart of an individual.

  One time when I was a kid, I remember being punished by my father. I was so angry at the situation, but I was still ordered to split an entire cord of wood and stack it by days end. At the end of the day, I was still angry at my father, and I was not repentant for the crime I had been punished for. But all that mattered was I do my task as Ordered and all was forgiven.
  
  I think the same thing goes with the Watchtower. You gain advancement in the organization based on outward conformity, metrics, appearance, etc... Very little weight is based on an individuals love for God [Jehovah] his prayer life, or his continual relationship with God.

  As I said, fear is a great tool to use, if the only thing an organization is concerned about is surface level results and outward conformity.

  New Goal in how to talk to Witnesses

  Since coming to a deep understanding of this emotional predisposition that JW's hold to, I have changed the way I approach witnesses, both friends and family. I go into a conversation with the understanding that they don't respect me. [I know they love me] but the issue is they Trust and Respect the Watchtower first. Its not my goal to win an argument, neither is it my goal to come up with the best argument. Its my goal to win their trust, which again is rooted in Emotion.

  I don't think of this as an emotional tactic. In fact, this is all rooted in simply being myself. In fact, I think when most people try to win over a JW's they are in fact "Playing games" with them. If you approach a conversation not concerned about the individual you are speaking with, or simply trying to win an argument, this is rooted in your own Ego.

  In conclusion, a JW will never be logically convinced against an argument they have emotionally succumbed to. The goals of our conversations should be rooted in our love and concern for the person we are speaking with. Because at the end of the day, they believe that the Watchtower cares about them, therefore this is ultimately the only authority they can trust.
  
  So is reasoning with a JW the answer? Of course it is. But remember the foundation of their belief is not rooted in sound reasoning to begin with. I try to tackle to core of the issue first. The misplaced dedication and loyalty to the Watchtower itself, rooted in fear. When speaking with JW's, they know I am a person they can trust. and I don't live up to the stereotypes that the Watchtower places on "apostates"

  Even if the decide to stay in the Watchtower, they will always know that there is somebody who cares about them on the outside, a Safety Net if you will... the next time they decide to reevaluate their circumstances.
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  6

  The Snarky apologist (This channel does not exist)

  by pleaseresearch in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  does anybody know more on this?.

  he had some amazing videos and now they are gone :(.

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  Saved_JW

  I am a close friend of Bill. He has always struggled with the effectiveness of having his videos posted online, he loves doing them, but in the end, he decided that the means of reaching out to JW's was not going to be youtube.
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  12

  Reply to Bugbear: Why I believe in the Bible

  by Saved_JW in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  [some words i corrected for spelling & grammer] .

  "i have been studying the bible for almost 20 years....after graduating in history and science comparing to the the bible, i have have come to to the conclusion that the bible cannot give you any reason to believe in it at all.

  so i wonder, why do you use the bible as facit to your believes?

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  Saved_JW

  [Some words I corrected for spelling & Grammer]

  "I have been studying the Bible for almost 20 years….After graduating in History and Science comparing to the the Bible, I have have come to to the conclusion that the Bible cannot give you any reason to believe in it at all. So I wonder, why do you use the Bible as FACIT to your believes? I think that most people will do better off by thinking for themselves. Not using old Christian or Islamic propaganda to examine their beliefs. None of them are fact or a FACIT, to the world?"

  **Not sure what you mean by "Facit" perhaps you meant Fact? or FACET? So I did not correct this.

  Thanks for your response Bugbear, I think this question is worthy enough for a new topic since it didn't directly tie into my previous thread on Why I did not return to the Watchtower.

  I want to start off by saying that the vast majority of the time when people ask these questions, they are not genuinely concerned, nor do they care about how I respond. Their minds and hearts are already set against any evidence contrary to their bias. I have no idea what your intentions in asking the question are, be that as it may...there will still be many lurkers who will want to know if you don't.

  I will start off by first questioning some of the statements you made, then I will follow up with a brief explanation of why I believe.

  • After graduating in History and Science comparing to the the Bible, I have have come to to the conclusion that the Bible cannot give you any reason to believe in it at all

  Any specific examples I can respond to here? Its really hard to answer to broad brush generalizations against scripture that are not rooted in specifics. You said the bible cannot give you ANY REASON to believe it, well the bible says that the Earth is a circle, do you not believe that?

  • I think that most people will do better off by thinking for themselves. Not using old Christian or Islamic propaganda to examine their beliefs

  This is what I would like to respond to primarily.

  I find it simply amazing when Atheists/agnostics live with the assumption that if somebody is a Christian, they do not think for themselves.

  1- We all have assumptions about what we believe, nobody lives in complete neutrality. Our opinions are a result of many things including past life experience, authority's we trust, research compiled and yes Emotion. We don't live in a vacuum. Our opinions are not neutral, they are in fact influenced to some degree or another from others. So really there is no such thing as a true "Free Thinker"

  2- If what you mean by not being a "Free Thinker" is that I don't draw my own conclusions, that is not true. I engage in Christian Apologetics on a regular basis. In other words, I don't just believe what I read, I test it. [Linguistically, Archeologically, Historically, scientifically, logically, and I test the scripture against itself for consistency. This is called the science of Hermeneutics]

  As a Christian I strive not only to know what I believe, but Why I believe it. Yes I have read many secular books. I own and have read most of Bart Ehrmans publicans, some of Richard Dawkins books [including The Blind Watchmaker, The Greatest Show on Earth, and The God Delusion]

  3- So now for the positive claims of Scripture. At the end of the day it all boils down to what convinces you. So put simply I am convinced of the claims of Scripture and I find them to be true for faith and morals. Jesus said: "My sheep hear my voice, they follow me."

  that being said I strongly believe the REASON I believe isn't because of the many convincing arguments I have come across for Gods existence, its a heart issue. At the end of the day, God has changed me from a rebel who hated him and his law, to somebody who loves him and follows him. Not because of anything I did, but because of what He did.

  That may not be the black and white answer you want to hear, but its the bottom line. Those who are not changed by God, will live in rebellion and will hate Him. Its really one or the other.

  4- More tangible reasons for my belief in scripture comes down to: The messianic prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament, scripture being firmly rooted in history as supported by archeology and textual transmission, Prophetic insights of Daniel coming to fruition [empires coming into existence after Babylon including Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome] , Most of all the way scripture describes the process of regeneration in the spirit perfectly described my experience into faith. [I would be happy to go into those details as well if requested]

  In conclusion, we all have bias. Nobody on this earth is neutral when it comes to faith. This is true with Atheistic assumptions, Agnostic, Scientific presuppositions, or religious. We as humans draw conclusions based on past experience, authoritative influence, research, and most of all emotion. You simply cannot dismiss those as factors when it comes to bias. I find that many people do, and when they do, the only thing I can say is they are blind to their assumptions. To be blind to the reasons for why you believe something puts a person at a unique disadvantage when defending their position. I am certainly aware of my assumptions, and my bias. But I am consistent in my beliefs and my worldview. I test my beliefs with evidence and with scripture itself. I strive as a Christian to be consistent with myself and my outlook of the world.
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  20

  Reasons for NOT Returning

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i left the watchtower in the winter of 2008. my first year out was by far the most difficult.

  i had every intention of returning to the watchtower for the very purpose of being able to speak with my friends and family.

  i had already concluded that the teachings were not the "truth" [after reading crisis of conscience] so coming back was more emotional then anything.

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  Saved_JW

  @Bugbear

  I will make a separate thread answering your question
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  2

  Reasons for NOT Returning Pt. 2

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  we know he is our son, the parents answered, and we know he was born blind.

  21 but how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we dont know.

  he is of age; he will speak for himself.

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  Saved_JW

  We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23 That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.” - John 9:20-23

  I talked earlier about the Fear mechanism used in the Watchtower against any dissention in the ranks. This could be for minor thought crimes against the Organization and its leadership, to outright brazen rebellion. Fear is a very effective tool for control. The weakness of this type of manipulation lies in the heart of those being conformed. Fear is effective at outward control, but it is generally not lasting, because it is not rooted in the hearts of those being controlled.

  As you can see in the scripture I posted above. Jesus clearly did a miracle in the life of a blind man. The takeaway of this miracle was that before Jesus he was blind [physically and Spiritually] but after he was awake. Jesus told him not to tell anybody, but he couldn't help himself. He had to tell others about the EXPERIENCE he had with Jesus.

  The Pharisees of course saw this as a threat because they had religious control over the minds of the people [not the hearts] They used FEAR as a way to manipulate people into conformity. The parents of this man were brought before a Judicial committee to comment on what had happened. Of course they knew full well what happened, but out of fear, they caved into pressure and lied because they did not want to be cast out of the Synagogue.

  History of the Synagogue

  This is an important factor to consider because during Jesus time, the Synagogue was central to the life of a Jew. In small communities you would find your entire family there. Not only for religious purposes, but the Synagogue was vastly important to business. Your family trade was tied into the social contacts forged at the Synagogue.

  Needless to say, being kicked out of the Synagogue wasn't as easy as simply moving from one church to another. It meant a complete disconnect from family ties, relationships, economic bankruptcy, and social ostracism. In fact, many people who converted to Christianity would not only be kicked out, the family and community would hold a funeral service for them!
  
  Jesus knew the implications of his message. He knew that this message was not meant to unite people, it was meant to divide. Because that is what truth does. For those who have ears to hear, for those who have eyes to see, they will follow Jesus. The rest despise it. There is no middle ground when it comes to Jesus. You either faithfully follow him, or you hate Him.

  Drawing the Parallel

  In some respects, I feel for the parents of this man. I cant tell you how many times I have considered compromising what I believe for the comforts of the familiar. It would be so easy to just make everybody happy. All I have to do is attend meetings for a year, underline in my Watchtower, and sooner or later I will be reinstated!
  
  

  My calling is a different path. I will not be governed by fear. I will live my life with confidence and Integrity.

  I recall two different conversations I had with my father and my brother:
  
  A few years ago I was talking with my dad who was imploring me to return. He made it sound so easy. Here was the problem.
  I asked him: "Dad, I remember you telling me that Integrity was the best virtue we can have. I am trying my hardest to align myself with that value. that being said, you want me to return to the Watchtower, the only problem is...I don't believe it [For the reasons we discussed in the conversation] So would you advise that I return to the Watchtower, even though I don't believe it?"
  
  His answer after much hesitation was...no.

  
  I replied: "For this reason, there is no amount of shunning or fear that will manipulate me back into the Watchtower. Its not on the basis of fear that will motivate me, it will be on the basis of TRUTH!" Either the Watchtower is true or its not. If you want me to discuss those specific reasons for which I disagree I would be more then happy to go over that.
  
  I had the same type of conversation with my brother.
  
  I think the takeaway from this conversation was more respect for my position. They understand that social manipulation is not an effective means for controlling me. If they really want me to return, they will have to understand the depths of disagreements I have and responds to those.

  I can only hope that someday they will

  I
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  20

  Reasons for NOT Returning

  by Saved_JW in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  i left the watchtower in the winter of 2008. my first year out was by far the most difficult.

  i had every intention of returning to the watchtower for the very purpose of being able to speak with my friends and family.

  i had already concluded that the teachings were not the "truth" [after reading crisis of conscience] so coming back was more emotional then anything.

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  Saved_JW

  I left the Watchtower in the Winter of 2008. My first year out was by far the most difficult. I had every intention of returning to the Watchtower for the very purpose of being able to speak with my friends and family. I had already concluded that the teachings were not the "truth" [after reading Crisis of Conscience] So coming back was more emotional then anything.

  The longer I was away however, the easier it became to deal with the emotional trauma. Much of my coping was being able to talk to struggling Jehovah's Witnesses over the years. I have found that they have helped me more then I had helped them. Its for this reason I wanted to discuss a few of the reasons why I will not return to the Watchtower. I hope that this can help some lurkers on this board who are considering this as an option.
  
  1- Legalism

  Phil 3:7-11
  
  "But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead. "

  I look back at my past experience in the Watchtower which was full of Legalism. I was really a slave to the tenants and regulations imposed upon me. I thought of myself as righteous, but in reality, I was living in a way to promote myself, advance myself and give glory to myself, not God. This is exactly what Paul was going through. He had much to boast about himself and his accomplishments as a Pharisee. But looking back, he considered it all garbage when compared to knowing Jesus.
  
  I didn't pick the easiest path. [The Watchtower would have been easier, living by works, and having the social approval of friends and family to reinforce fallacious beliefs] I chose the path that was fulfilling. Because no longer am I about promoting myself, I live for God.

  2- Life of Illusion

  If you think about it. Being in the Watchtower is a lot like being an actor. Jesus actually condemned the Pharisees by calling them hypocrites. This word in greek means "a stage actor"

  In ancient times a stage actor was really at the bottom of the social ladder [unlike today] they made their living pretending to be somebody they are not. This often times meant wearing a mask during a performance. People never really saw WHO the person was , only the person they were portraying.

  Jesus was comparing the Pharisees to these stage actors who wore a religious mask. Who feigned righteousness and piety, but on the inside were wolves.

  What a fitting description of the Watchtower mindset. The Organization itself prides itself on being "Clean" on the outside. But inside is decayed and spiritually dead. They feign righteousness by what they wear and how they act [in public] but the reality is quite different.

  I had to ask myself.... If I return to the Watchtower, would I be comfortable returning to a life of a stage actor? Whats even worse, knowing full well the deceptive nature of the Watchtower, and its false teachings, would I feel comfortable living a life inconsistent with my beliefs?

  IN a way I think that would be worse then the Rank and File JW, at least they live their life in blissful ignorance of the deception before them.

  3- Fake Relationships
  
  

  The Watchtower is masterful at using a mechanism of fear to control and manipulate people into conformity. They do this by social peer pressure. [Yes the very mechanism they preach against in other contexts] The result is a social standard in the JW community governed by fear, not freedom of expression.
  
  This is all but guaranteed with the checks and balances within the authority structure itself. "Independent Thinking" is strongly discouraged and any thought not in conformity to the Organization will quickly be escalated to the elders. The result is relationships that are very shallow. The relationship's are effectively guided and manipulated by social standards that are not genuine. Sure your friends and family will be there for the good times, but what about those times of depression when you really need to be open and honest with them? You can kiss that hope goodbye. These psudo relationships are one of the reason why I did not want to return to the Watchtower.
  
  In fact, I remember a conversation I had with my dad a few years back. One of the things he told me [intentional on encouraging me] was "Love is waiting for you"
  
  I couldn't help but laugh at that statement. What he was really saying was that the natural love a parent has for a child is currently suspended, conditional upon my return to the Watchtower. That was evidence enough for me to rethink the value of the relationships found in the WT, even with family ties.
  
  4- Broken Testimony
  
  Think for a moment about the tidal wave of gossip that possibly surrounded in the Kingdom Hall the moment you left. Many people were left questioning "Why?"
  
  The biggest testimony we have against the Watchtower is to be a shining example of success outside the Watchtower. Whether you realize it or not, people are always wondering how you are doing from time to time. They have to consciously suppress any negative emotion [cognitive dissonance] that may trail behind the reasons for you leaving the Watchtower.

  What if you Returned? Well, there would be no reason for them to suppress those emotions anymore. Their testimony in the Watchtower would then be reinforced as a result of your return. All of that time you spent outside would have been wasted.
  
  One of the things that scared me was what Jesus said at Matthew 10:33
  
  "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."
  
  The thought of them making that announcement on the stage ____ Is now one of Jehovah's Witnesses.... would be tantamount of denying Jesus for the acceptance of men. No thank you
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  38

  New Word Coined In April 2016 WT!

  by Naoscillator in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  and the word is... .

  canaanitelike!.

  here it is in context, just in case you're curious about how to use this new word.. article: being faithful leads to god's approval.

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  Saved_JW

  Sounds like a name from Star Trek, lol
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  56

  OK friends lets be honest, if a Nuclear Holocaust took place today how many of you would return to the KH?

  by James Mixon in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  speaking for my self, no way in hell.. this question to see if you really have been deprogramed,.

  do you 100% believe it is not the truth.. a fourth of the world hit by a nuclear attack..

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  Saved_JW

  Truth means without error, the Governing Body has admitted on numerous occasions they make errors, ergo it cannot be true.

  Its a very simple concept. Inconsistency is the first sign of a failed argument/doctrine.
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  56

  OK friends lets be honest, if a Nuclear Holocaust took place today how many of you would return to the KH?

  by James Mixon in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  speaking for my self, no way in hell.. this question to see if you really have been deprogramed,.

  do you 100% believe it is not the truth.. a fourth of the world hit by a nuclear attack..

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  Saved_JW

  If there was a nuclear holocaust I am not convinced a Kingdom Hall would be the best place to hide, I would go for a bomb shelter or a school gym, it would be a lot safer