Posts by JohnClarinet

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear THP,

Me:
The issue here is not the sacrifice of a child, if it were then certainly God would have instructed it to the Jews. But do you see any? Certainly not!

You:
How anyone can turn around and say that the issue is not the sacrifice of a child is beyond me, the fact still remains that God accepted the sacrifice and that is what makes him an appaling character.

Me:
Firstly, did God allow children to be sacrificed? In fact, God'S Word speaks against it. That's Japthehs folly. If he knew God's Word he would have certainly not sacrificed his child.
Secondly, is God dependant on sacrifices? Certainly not! It is the faith of the believer that matters. Japtheh showed little faith by making a hasteful vow and he paid the price for saying it. And should we blame God if Japtheh is foolish enough not to refer to God's Word or even to God to resolve his dilemma?

You:
If I promised you a TV say, and then proceeded to give you a stolen one, you of course, fully aware of the fact that it was to be stolen yet you accept it, What does that make you? Would you explain to everyone that you accepted it because a promise is a promise? I don't think so but then if you are willing to accept human sacrifice on the same principals, who knows.

Me:
I don't need your TV, but I do value your friendship. God doesn't need your sacrifice, but He does value your faith in Him.

You:
You ask if I can see God asking for a human sacrifice? the answer is a definate yes.
Gen.22:2
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Me:
Was Isaac sacrificed? Certainly not! Abraham said "God will provide the sacrifice", and He did by providing the ram (a symbol of Christ's own sacrifice).

You:
Ex.22:29
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Me:
Are there any accounts of Jews sacrificing children? Or perhaps even today? You're taking Scripture out of context to suit your errorneous claim. Is this fair?

You:
Lev.27:2, 10, 28-29
Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow ... he shall not alter it, nor change it, a good for a bad, or a bad for a good.... no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast ... shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD. None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

Me:
You swapped your wife's gold wedding ring and replaced it with a plastic ring, what would your wife say? How can one treat God with such disrespect?

You:
Num.31:25-29
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation: And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation: And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep: Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
2 Sam.21:1, 8-9, 14
Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.... The king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul ... And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD....And after that God was intreated for the land.
1 Kg.13:2
And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.
2 Kg.23:20
And he slew all the priests of the high places that were there upon the altars, and burned men's bones upon them.

Me:
Again none of the verses speaks of child sacrifices. Try asking a Jew if they practise child sacrifices. Again Scripture is presented out of context.

You:
I still call it a lie and you are indeed promulgating that same lie.

Me:
Say what you like. The Nazis called Hitler a saint. If though the facts show otherwise the Nazis today still adore him.

You:
God help you

Me:
He did, through Jesus Christ our Savior.

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear Six,

Better still. I call you "my friend".

Drop by anytime at my site and let's get to know each other.
http://pub26.bravenet.com/forum/show.asp?usernum=2200975854

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear Six,

You:
Just call me Plus+homey nim, John, but you sir, are an idiot. A morally repugnant idiot to boot.

Me:
Matt 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear THP,

Re:

Savages? While the pagans were sacrificing their children to their gods, the Jews were practising a more civilized sacrifice.

You:
That my friend is a missrepresentation of the truth ie. a lie.
Judges chapter 11 says from verse 30:
30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. {whatsoever…: Heb. that which cometh forth, which shall come forth} {and…: or, or I will offer it, etc
32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel. {the plain: or, Abel}
34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. {beside…: or, he had not of his own either son or daughter: Heb. of himself}
35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. {go up…: Heb. go and go down}
38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel, {custom: or, ordinance}
40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year. {yearly: Heb. from year to year} {to lament: or, to talk with}
Did you notice how he carried out his vow. This honourable man presents a more civilised sacrifice, yes or no.
I would like to see you deal with this.

Me:
The issue here is not the sacrifice of a child, if it were then certainly God would have instructed it to the Jews. But do you see any? Certainly not! Therefore this case isn't about sacrifices but of carelessness in making vows. See Ecc 5:2-6,
2 Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few.
3 For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.
4 When you vow a vow to God, do not delay paying it; for he has no pleasure in fools. Pay what you vow.
5 It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not pay.
6 Let not your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger that it was a mistake; why should God be angry at your voice, and destroy the work of your hands?
Jephthah need not had made such a rash vow if he had enough faith to know that God is with him (just as God is with Joshua, see Josh 1:5). Did God demanded a child sacrifice? Certainly not! It's Jephthah's own mistake. Instead, he had to make a careless vow just to be sure that God is with him. We should heed the wise words of Ecc 5:2-6, let us not make careless vows but have faith in God instead.

As for child sacrifices practised outside God's children the Israelites please refer the following verses:
2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled To'pheth, which is in the valley of the sons of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech.
Jer 7:31 And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.
Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Ba'al to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba'al, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind;

And here's a link with regard to child sacrifices practised by the pagan kingdoms that Israel subdued with God's help:
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/child-sacrifice.htm

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear Six,

Re:

While the Spartan slaves were "wiped out" by their mighty masters the Romans when they did their exodus the Jewish slaves were practically unharmed by their mighty masters the Egyptians when THEY did their exodus, they even went on to build a nation/kingdom too among hostile nations. Sheer luck?

You:
Which exodus was that again? Do you mean that bible story precipitated by god killing the snotty nosed evil firstborn of the Egyptians?

Me:
Kindly read Exodus 1 and tell me who is responsible for killing Hebrew children long before the exodus lead by Moses.

You:
The Exodus that left no trace, by a slave nation that left no trace? From mighty masters who don't mention that part of their history in the least?

Me:
Please update your history of Egypt by reading this link:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/pharaoh.html

You:
And building that nation/kindom amongst hostile nations, that is a tad easier if you have no concience about killing anything and everything in your way, save for the best lay, 'cuz god told you to, isn't it?

Me:
In those battles did not God intervene to help His children? If God is for the Israelites, who can stand against them? That's what Rahab acknowledged. As for the hostile kingdoms why don't you do a study of what these guys practise and believe in. I hear some of them practise child sacrifices. The stuff they practised are an abomination to God, the Israelites did God a "favor".

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear Jan,

Re:

Try reading the Bible and tell me if it isn't God's Word.

You:
I have read it many times. In fact, studied it quite extensively.
It is not the word of any half sane God.
It is the errant, self-contradictory and ethically repugnant records of primitive savages, about their religion.

Me:
Primitive? How can monotheism be primitive? Polytheism was the fad during primitive times so how can you say primitive? Savages? While the pagans were sacrificing their children to their gods, the Jews were practising a more civilized sacrifice.

Re:

Try studying the history of Israel and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word.

You:
Ridiculous claim. Examples?

Me:
Look who's back from exile and reestablished their nation?

Re:

Try studying the history of the church and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word.

You:
I have studied the history of the church. And the Bibel prophecied that Christ would return within the lifetime of people living in the 1st century, so all that happened after that is something that proves Bible "prophecy" false.

Me:
Since when 1st century? If Matt 28:19 has yet to be fulfilled how be it 1st century?

Re:

Try studying the history of the world and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word.

You:
None of it is. You are either ignorant of world history, the Bible, or both.

Me:
See my response to REM regarding world events and Revelation.

You:
The Bible, however, contains a number of utterly failed prophecies.

Me:
Every knee shall bow and every tounge confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Today 1/3 of the 6 billion world population are Christians and it started from a little ban of Jewish desciples.

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear REM,

Re:
:Try reading the Bible and tell me if it isn't God's Word. Try studying the history of Israel and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word. Try studying the history of the church and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word. Try studying the history of the world and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word.
Been there done that. I have many bibles and books of apocrypha, books on the history of Israel. I have seen no prophecies that could be explained by simpler means.

Me:
Try explaining Isaiah 53 and Matt 26, 27.

You:
I have seen no evidence for any inspiration from God in the Bible.

Me:
While the Spartan slaves were "wiped out" by their mighty masters the Romans when they did their exodus the Jewish slaves were practically unharmed by their mighty masters the Egyptians when THEY did their exodus, they even went on to build a nation/kingdom too among hostile nations. Sheer luck?

You:
I see nothing significant in the history of the church that leads me to believe it has any backing of some Higher Power.

Me:
The early church did not rely on conquest to spread it's teachings, yet by the time Constantine made Christianity the official "religion" of the Roman Empire Christianity was already an established "religion" in the boundaries of the Roman Empire despite the persecution. "...and the powers of death shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18). 1/3 of the population today believes and accepts Jesus as their Savior. Devine intervention or sheer luck?

You:
The history of the world is no more prophesied by God than it was prophesied by Nostrodomus.

Me:
Look at todays issues:
1. Globalization
2. The UN
3. G8
4. European Union
5. The Euro
6. The US dollar
7. The US Government
8. Big Corporation mergers

Now you tell me if these things do not spell out the initial formation of a one world order as prophecied in Revelation? If you want to have an interesting discussion with me on this you can do it at my site:
http://pub26.bravenet.com/forum/show.asp?usernum=2200975854

You:
I was just as much a Bible thumper as you are, but I after an honest look at the facts, it was clear to me that the Bible is the work of man.

Me:
Strange. I went the opposite. I was even more convinced that the Bible is God's Word.

Re:
:The Hindu Vedas or any other religious books says man can achieve salvation by way of works. IN short, you are your own god, you save yourself. The Bible does not teach that does it?
Why are you comparing other religious works to the Bible? How do you know you should not be evaluating the Bible in relation to the other religious writings? Maybe all of the other writings are correct and the Bible is wrong (it does seem to be in the minority in the Salvation department)?

Me:
Tell me where in the Bhagavad Gita or Quran or any other religious book that states that they are the only way to God, Heaven, nirvana, etc. Or salvation is by faith and faith alone (as if God needed anything in exchange for our salvation - good works)

You:
Your sentence is nonsensical to a person who does not believe the Bible is the supreme authority. Before a rational person will believe the Bible to be the supreme authority, there needs to be evidence of this. There is none.

Me:
Most cultures have an ancient story of a big flood and that the survivors are the origin of their tribes. One wonders how such ancient stories sounds so familiar with Noah's account in Genesis. I live among diverse cultures and I know what I mean.

Re:
:The Wages of Sin is Death (Romans 6:23). Since you never died nor offered yourself as a sacrifice why in the verld should I believe that you will take away the sins of the world. You don't even come close to the Messiah description in Isa 53. Read Romans on why you are not unique :-)
My religion has nothing to do with the Bible. My disciples live by my words which are transmitted to the world through inspiration. I transfer my thoughts to a trained monkey which posts my commandments on jehovahs-witness.com under the handle of REM. This is their Bible. My ways do not require death for Salvation. My disciples - yes even the whole world is saved through my Life.

Me:
I don't see any REM temple at my end of the globe. Are you one of those David Koresh wannabes? :-)

You:
Don't worry my son, you are saved by the graces of REM. I don't mind that you are steeped in the false religion of the JHWH Bible. I am a much kinder and forgiving God than the ones humans invented.

Me:
I am not a JW. I'm an Evangelical Christian from the Brethren Denomination (same denomination as FF Bruce). IN short, I belong to the Trinitarian gang. BTW, if yer god, please tell me what I had fer breakfast this morning. :-)

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear REM,

You:
We are hearing you loud and clear, but you are not understanding the question. Your authority is the Bible. That is where your belief that Jesus died for all comes from. You dogmatically state this claim even though you have no evidence that the Bible is in fact God's word.

Me:
Try reading the Bible and tell me if it isn't God's Word. Try studying the history of Israel and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word. Try studying the history of the church and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word. Try studying the history of the world and tell me if it is not prophecied in God's Word.

You:
You have no more reason to believe what the Bible says than to believe the writings of the Hindu Vedas. Thus your claim that Jesus died for all is baseless.

Me:
The Hindu Vedas or any other religious books says man can achieve salvation by way of works. IN short, you are your own god, you save yourself. The Bible does not teach that does it?

You:
As for John's comment about Jesus unique claim "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." I say: "REM is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me."
Now I've just started my own religion and Jesus' claim is no longer unique. How can you prove that I have not just saved all of mankind?

Me:
The Wages of Sin is Death (Romans 6:23). Since you never died nor offered yourself as a sacrifice why in the verld should I believe that you will take away the sins of the world. You don't even come close to the Messiah description in Isa 53. Read Romans on why you are not unique :-)

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear Carmel,

You:
how did jesus die for the Muslems? There were no such critters for over 600 years after he was hung up to dry!

Me:
Gadzooks! Moslems ain't critters what. They made in God's image too like you and me. And did not Jesus's sacrifice includes them too in John 1:29?

You:
the exclusivist intrepretation of John 6:14 is identical to the exclusivist understanding of Mohammed saying he was the "seal of the prophets" or Moses calling himself the "friend of God".

Me:
Correction! It's John 14:6. And what has seal and friend has any similarity to "I am the way ... no one ... but by me"?

You:
have you ever wondered if there is a different meaning to these scriptures, or is it too uncomfortable to consider that just maybe jesus was not as unique as you would like him to be?

Me:
Yes I have, but the Bible confirms Jesus's claims in John 14:6. Period! :-)
BTW, I'm uncomfortable with this kinda forum style. Quite tyring and I've just been defending the faith in some Moslem board. Drop by at my site to continue discussions if yer interested:
http://pub26.bravenet.com/forum/show.asp?usernum=2200975854

God Bless,
John

60

Muhammad is my savior!

by d0rkyd00d in

jw
friends

just kidding.

but i need some sort of lead in to my question.

when you are born, you are born into a religion.

JohnClarinet

Dear all,

This is me first toime here and here's me site. Do drop by if yer interested ter have dialogues with Reformists, RCs, ex-RCs, JWs, ex-JWs, Muslims, etc. BTW, I'm a Christian livin in a Muslim land and have started a Christian site called CLARINET. Here's the URL to the discussion board:
http://pub26.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=2200975854

And here's the URL to the CLARINET website:
http://www.clarinet.50megs.com

Here's my response to JT,

Re:
Christ died for all men. Period. There is no right religion. Period.

JT:
and this sad to say is the problem- you firmly believe in the man called Christ which is cool with me,
but sad to say there are billions of other folks who have lived and died under another Belief System who would say exactly the opposite and say " Mohamid died for all men, Period. there is no right religion,. period"

Me:
Islam does not teach that Muhammad died for all men. Islam teaches that Muhammad is THE LAST AND THE GREATEST PROPHET and he was revealed the final revelation by the angel Gabrial called the Quran that supersedes the Bible and the Torah. Islam claims that the Bible and Torah is corrupted and that only the Quran is "God's word".

Enough said about Islam. As for other religions, no other religion had anyone claiming:
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.

Therefore, Jesus is the only one who claims exclusive rights and passage to the Father. PERIOD! No other religion dare make such claims.

JT:
you you are right back where you started- following a Belief System that you were introduced to
either as a child or an adult- the same as most folks who follow some type of "Higher Being" Belief System

Me:
I was not born into a Christian home. I became a Christian because I believed Jesus really is who He claimed HE is. And living in a land where you have plenty of Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais, Shintos, Sikhs, etc., it is not difficult for me to conduct a research on comparitive religions. While all religions teaches Faith and Deeds for salvation, Christianity is the only odd one out, Faith alone.

You:
you comment shows clearly that you look down on anyone who doesn't ACCEPT YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM

Me:
The issue is not looking down upon, it is the exclusivity of Jesus in John 14:6 that one must put to the test.

JT:
that is why you STATED "PERIOD"

Me:
That's what Jesus said in John 14:6, no?

JT:
now i stand to be corrected and if so please let me know- but to me i hear pretty much what i heard in WT
I got the "ONLY WAY OVER HERE AND IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW IT YOU DIE"
in fact this is one of the common threads in almost all Belief Systems
"I got the inside track to god you don't"

Me:
With John 14:6 in consideration, it's more like "He's (Jesus) got the inside track to God and we don't, why not check Him out?" :-D

You:
"If you don't accept my Belief System my god will kill you"
this is a problem that all Belief Systems face-

Me:
God killing unbelievers? Hmm? Can't think of any religion that teaches that. Heaven and Hell teaching yes but God killing?

JT:
How do you claim to be the ONLY WAY--at the same time telling other folks that thier way is ok too
rock and a hardplace i guess

Me:
All truth is God's truth. While all religions teaches Goodness, Jesus makes an exclusive claim of being the only way for the Godless. Try telling your friends about the Bible and avoid making referrals to their current system of belief. The moment you criticize their religion spells the end of the discussion and perhaps even friendship.

God Bless,
John