Posts by JosephAlward

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Pom’s ridiculous assertion that the Greek word mete (may’ teh), which appears in Luke 9:3 in the phase mete rhabdos (“no staves”), means “one, but not two” is totally without biblical support.

In every one of the thirty-six other instances of mete in the New Testament the word is translated as either “neither” or “nor.” Furthermore, not one of the eleven different versions of the Bible available at Bible Gateway support Pom’s interpretation. Nine of the versions translate the word in Luke 9:3 as “no,” or “neither.” The remaining two versions are even more explicit:

“Don't even take along a walking stick," (NLT)
“Do not take a walking stick.” (YLT)

Does Pom think he is so skilled in Greek that he knows something that was not known by any of the experts who translated the eleven different versions of the Bible from Greek to English? How likely is it that Pom is right, and all of them were wrong? How likely is it that mete means “one, but not two” at Luke 9:3, but doesn’t mean anything similar to this in the thirty-six other cases of this word’s use in the New Testament?

Where did Pom get his advanced degree in Greek, and what articles has he published which establish credentials so powerful that his opinion should be preferred over that of the translators of the eleven different different versions of the Bible?

Pom is wasting the forum’s time with his silly objections, far-fetched scenarios, and amateur linguistic analyses. It’s evident that Pom will endure any indignity, suffer any embarrassment, in order to preserve his illusion that the Bible is without error. We’ve indulged him long enough in this particular matter, I believe. I’m confident that no one who’s been paying attention to this thread believes that Pom has successfully defended the Bible against the claim of error in the matter of the staves, not even Bang, so I believe this argument should be closed. Our time will be better spent elsewhere, in my opinion.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Bang,

Your remarks about the staff are largely unintelligible. If that's all you have to say in support of your argument, I prefer to just let your comments go unanswered. Perhaps Pom will try to respond to Moxy's and my arguments.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Good question, Mox.

Even if Pom could find such an example--and that seems extremely unlikely, it wouldn't matter, since Pom's god inspired the writing of the Bible, he thinks. Pom would have to explain why an all-knowing, all-powerful god would let Luke write "Take nothing, no staves..." when he wanted his readers to know that Jesus wanted his disciples to take only one staff. This god would surely have known that readers would take Luke's words at face value, so the god would have had Luke write, "Take only one staff," if that's what the god wanted us to know.

What we have here is a desperate attempt by a misguided believer to salvage what he thinks is an inerrant Bible. Sensible Christians know that the different Bible writers had different views of Jesus, and therefore wrote different, and sometimes conflicting stories about him.

Finally, Pom will be unable to explain why Jesus would even care whether the disciples took two staffs. Perhaps he will say that the second staff would just slow them down a bit, but that explanation is pitiful compared to the alternative view I presented in my post to Bang: Luke wanted his readers to compare Jesus' disciples to the fearless traveler in Psalm 23 who put his life in the hands of the Lord; he didn't need a staff because the Lord was his "rod and staff." How could any clear-thinking Christian overlook the OBVIOUS parable about faith that Luke was presenting his readers in favor of the preposterous, how-it-could-have-been scenario that Pom provides?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Bang stated,

I'd be proud to be a muslim, as I would a christian, but if I required literary proof before doing so, I wouldn't feel I was either.

All right, Bang. You seem to be saying the Muslims are just as justified in holding to their faith that the true god is Allah as you are in believing that the true god is Yahweh (or YHWH, or Jehovah, or LORD, whatever you call it). If this accurately characterizes your belief, then you evidently believe that your bible is no more inerrant than is the bible of the muslims, and that if Muslims were to closely inspect the Koran, they would find errors and contradictions in it, just as is the case with Christians and their bible.

You're essentially telling the forum that you have CHOSEN to believe that the Christian's Bible is without error, and that you've arrived at this choice not by reason, but by faith alone. If that's true, then you probably should not try to defend your belief in inerrancy by a linguistic or literary analysis of the Bible; you should just tell people that you believe that the Bible is the word of God, and even if their appears to be errors or contradictions in it, you feel that all of them will be explained away when you get to heaven.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Bang,

Luke didn't offer the slightest hint or faint suggestion that Jesus had a second walking staff in mind, so the question of why the disciples MIGHT have wished to carry two sticks is irrelevent.The problem at hand is the apparent contradiction between Mark, who said "carry a stick," and Luke, who said carry "no stick."

Mark says that Jesus told his disciples to take a walking stick, but Luke said just the opposite. Neither you, nor Pom, have been able to explain WHY Luke would not say "extra" if that's what he really wanted us to believe.

If you're not sure what my argument is, I'll present it again:

Mark said Jesus told his disciples to carry a staff:

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff...” (Mark 6:8)

However, Luke tells us that Jesus wanted them to take no staff:

He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. (Luke 9:3)

Bang, do you see anywhere in Luke's words a reference to "extra" staffs? Of course you don't. So, how in the world can you imagine that Luke was really talking about a spare staff? Please answer that question. If you're honest with yourself, and with this forum, you should reply by saying that there's an apparent contradiction which you cannot resolve.

If you DO agree that there's a contradiction, but then claim that this will all be explained to the faithful when they get to heaven to ask Jesus about it, you will missing an opportunity to better understand your Bible.

On the other hand, if you accept that there's a contradiction, and resign yourself to the fact that the Bible is not literally true, then what you will be able to see is an important parable about faith, told by Luke. What's really going on here is that Luke wished for his readers to know that Jesus'disciples were like the traveler in the Twenty-Third Psalm, who went fearlessly through the valley of death without an actual staff: "thou (the Lord) art with me, thy rod and thy staff." The only "staff" Jesus wanted to his disciples to take with them was the Lord. Thus, Matthew and Luke wanted their readers to know that the disciples were to show their faith in the Lord by going on their journeys without any physical protection; the Lord would do all of the protecting.

Do you see how simple, and how important, Luke's teaching is? Mark failed to take the opportunity to present a parable about faith, and Luke remedied the situation.

Now, Bang, if you still don't accept my explanation for the differences in the Mark and Luke stories, you're faced with the need to explain why Jesus would NOT want the disciples to carry a second staff. Please don't come back with the ridiculous suggestion that perhaps Jesus just wanted his disciples to be able to travel all the more quickly and that they could walk faster without that extra stick on their backs. I predict that you will not be able to come up with an "explanation" that is nearly as satisfying as the one I've presented. However, this has never stopped the "die-before-admitting-Bible-error" fundamentalist, if that's what you are; they will, without evident shame, present the most outlandish, far-fetched, "how-it-could-have been" scenarios to try to explain away Bible errors.

What do you say, Bang? Are you willing to concede that Luke's Jesus wanted his disciples to show their faith in the Lord by traveling without any staff whatsoever, but that Mark's Jesus DID allow a staff?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Bang writes,

"You know, there's many people who say they are willing to be a christian but only if someone can prove it to them - they 'seek for a sign'. The 'errors' you find can well be the mind's door out, if that's really your desire, He's not forcing anyone."

The comment above by Bang shows how limited and naive his world view is. He doesn't realize that there are millions of muslims who believe that Bang would accept Allah as his god if only he would accept the Koran as his Bible and not seek errors in it. Bang would be a muslim, they say, if he would not wait for someone to prove it to him, or wait for a sign that Islam is true.

Now, putting that aside, Bang, are you willing now to explain to the forum why you think it's reasonable to believe that Luke really meant "no EXTRA staff," even though he only said "no staff"?

If that's NOT what you believe, then how in the world do you explain why Luke's verse does not contradict Mark's verse?

And, if you DO believe that Luke meant for us to mentally insert "extra" between the words "no" and "staff," what evidence do you offer in support of your claim? Furthermore, why do you not consistently apply that rule to the words "bag,"bread," and "money"?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Pom has found evidence of one person in the Bible carrying two staffs, and I was, indeed, unaware of this verse. It only shows, however, that ONE person carried two staffs ONCE; it by no means is evidence that anyone else ever did it even once, let alone that it was a common enough practice that Jesus would need to ask his disciples not to carry two staffs. Furthermore, this particular person is using the staffs to shepherd sheep; he is not journeying overland, as would be the case for the disciples. However, I will remove the single sentence in my last post which called for Pom to provide evidence that someone in the Bible ever carried two staffs.

I will repeat my argument for Pom. This time he will have to address the question of why Luke didn't bother to have Jesus use the word "extra," if that's what he really meant.

Pom also needs to explain why he selectively applies the word "extra" only to the word "staff," and not to bag, bread, and money.

Here is the argument once again, without the offending sentence:

....

Mark said Jesus told his disciples to carry a staff:

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff...” (Mark 6:8)

However, Luke tells us that Jesus wanted them to take no staff:

He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. (Luke 9:3)

Pom and Bang claim that Luke really meant that the disciples should not take an extra staff. In other words, these boys want us to believe that Luke assumed we would automatically imagine that the word "extra" appeared between the two words, "no staff" in the verse above. This assertion is laughable on its face. Why didn't Luke just come right out and say, "no extra staff" if that is really what he meant?

Furthermore, if Pom and Bang can assert with zero textual evidence that Luke meant "no extra staff," in verse 9:3 above, then why don't they consistently apply this rule to the words "bag," "bread," and "money"? Thus, even though Luke clearly says take "no bag," "no bread," and "no money," Pom and Bang would have to conclude--using their own logic--that Luke meant that the disciples were to take "no extra bread," "no extra bag," and "no extra money," even though Luke never once used or implied the word "extra." Do they see how ridiculous their argument is?

Pom and Bang are exercising the kind of faith the author of Hebrews speaks of:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1)

Pom and Bang hope that Luke meant "extra," but they cannot see evidence of this anywhere in the Bible, or outside of it in historical records, and they cannot explain why Luke didn't use the word "extra" if that's really what he meant. They can continue to hope that there is no error in the Bible, but hope will not make it so, unless it is only in their dreams that things come true.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Mark said Jesus told his disciples to carry a staff:

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff...” (Mark 6:8)

However, Luke tells us that Jesus wanted them to take no staff:

He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. (Luke 9:3)

Pom and Bang claim that Luke really meant that the disciples should not take an extra staff. In other words, these boys want us to believe that Luke assumed we would automatically imagine that the word "extra" appeared between the two words, "no staff" in the verse above. This assertion is laughable on its face. Why didn't Luke just come right out and say, "no extra staff" if that is really what he meant? Where in the Bible or in any historical record has anyone ever carried two walking sticks?

Furthermore, if Pom and Bang can assert with zero textual evidence that Luke meant "no extra staff," in verse 9:3 above, then why don't they consistently apply this rule to the words "bag," "bread," and "money"? Thus, even though Luke clearly says take "no bag," "no bread," and "no money," Pom and Bang would have to conclude--using their own logic--that Luke meant that the disciples were to take "no extra bread," "no extra bag," and "no extra money," even though Luke never once used or implied the word "extra." Do they see how ridiculous their argument is?

Pom and Bang are exercising the kind of faith the author of Hebrews speaks of:

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1)

Pom and Bang hope that Luke meant "extra," but they cannot see evidence of this anywhere in the Bible, or outside of it in historical records, and they cannot explain why Luke didn't use the word "extra" if that's really what he meant. They can continue to hope that there is no error in the Bible, but hope will not make it so, unless it is only in their dreams that things come true.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Bang,

You have not presented an argument, just an assertion that makes no sense, and it doesn't seem to be anything more than something you cut and pasted from some apologist's web site; you don't seem even to understand what it means. If you did, you would be able and willing to show how it refutes the argument I've made.

You must do more than simply make a statement; forum members expect you to explain why you think that Jesus' statement in Luke,

"Take nothing for your journey--no staff.."

does not contradict Jesus' statement in Mark,

"Take nothing for the journey except a staff."

Can you explain to the forum why we should not take Luke's words at face value? Why do you think Luke said "take...no staff," if he really didn't mean that?

Where in the world did you get the idea that Luke wanted us to know that the disciples actually were allowed to take a staff, a special one you call an "ensign" staff? Where in the Bible do you think you find support for this conjecture? Luke says nothing about this; how come you know about the "ensign" staff, but he didn't?

No contradiction in the Bible is clearer than this one; you cannot make it go away merely by claiming that the plain words in print actually should be read as something else, or by making up a story about "ensigns," which I don't believe you understand anyway, as you just copied this "explanation" from someone else, who copied it from another person, and so on, and so on.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

45

Another Bible Error: The Disciples' Journey

by JosephAlward in

the story about the instructions jesus allegedly gave to his disciples before they were to set out on their evangelizing journey illustrates the type of contradictions which are found in the gospel stories.

in their two accounts of this event, the authors of mark and matthew disagree about whether jesus wanted the disciples to carry a staff with them.

mark tells us jesus told the disciples to go forth with a staff:.

JosephAlward

Pom,

I think the forum unanimously believes that you haven’t defended your case against contradiction between Mark and Matthew regarding the issue of the staves, so we can put that argument away.

Perhaps now you would like to try to explain why you don’t think there is a contradiction between Mark and Luke on the same matter?

I’ll remind you what Mark wrote:

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff...” (Mark 6:8)

Now read what Luke said, below:

When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. (Luke 9:1-3)

Is it not clear that Luke unequivocally states that Jesus told his disciples to take “no staff," and that this is in direct contradiction to Mark? If not, why not?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html