Posts by JosephAlward

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

That's "disabled."

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

I'm unable to edit my previous post because Simon has diabled the editing feature.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC,

Your Disneyland analogy breaks down because there are literally hundreds of thousands of families who have had the same experience, largely because those experiences were so common. Mark's story about Jesus sleeping and being scolded by the captain of the storm-threatened boat, and then the seas being calmed, and then the men fearing Jesus is virtually unique.

In only one other place in literature or folklore do we find the same elements all appearing in the same story. Thus, it is extremely unlikely that it is just a coincidence that the five elements, which make the Jonah story unique, are also found in Mark's story. Now, you'll note that I said "extremely unlikely"; these words leave room for the possibility that perhaps by some miracle the correspondences are coincidental. It is in the slim "possibility" that true believes will take refuge.

However, if there is other evidence of extraordinary correspondences between Mark's Jesus stories and stories from Scripture, then I think objective observers would have to agree that those stories are just remakes of scriptural stories with Jesus as the hero, and that Mark's stories are just fictional. And, as you know, there are[i/] other stories in Mark, which show extraordinary sharp parallels to ones in Scripture.

For example, there's the story of Jesus' disciples complaining that they cannot feed so many men on so little bread, but Jesus asks them to do it anyway, and they miraculously succeed, with bread left over. This story seems to be the mirror of the one in the Old Testament where Elisha's disciples complain that they cannot possibly feed so many men on so little bread, but Elisha tells them to do it anyway, and they miraculously succeed, with bread left over. It is extraordinarily unlikely that Mark did not base his feeding story on the one in Scripture. Together, these two striking correspondences--the sea-calming, and the feedings, make it even more unlikely that Mark's stories about Jesus were true.

Then there is the agonized prayer by Jesus at Gethsemane which is the mirror of David's lament, and the betrayal by Jesus which is the mirror of the one of David by his counselor; the list goes on and on. If a true believer [i]needs

to believe that Mark's Jesus stories are correct, then he can take solace in the fact that one will never be able to prove conclusively the stories are fake; all that the skeptic will be able to do is show to those who are objectively-minded that Mark's stories were almost certainly copied from Scripture and are entirely fictional.

Articles which describe further the parallels I mention above are found in the "Mark's Gospel" section of the web page in the signature line below.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

Something is wrong with the editor; I'm unable to edit it. I keep getting a message saying that the message is too old to edit, but I just created it five minutes ago.

Here is the change I had wanted to make to the previous post:

What's illogical is addressing only two of the elements of the parallel,

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

The fact that both stories involve the sea and a storm do not mean that Mark's is made up. That is an illogical leap.

What's illogical is addressing only of two elements of the parallel, and the weakest ones at that--the sea, and the storm. I thought I had made it clear that there were five elements in the two stories that are not to be found anywhere else in literature or folklore. I'll repeat these elements below:

1. A raging storm threatens a boat.
2. The hero is asleep on the boat.
3. The hero is awakened and criticized for his apparent lack of concern.
4. The storm is miraculously calmed.
5. The passengers fear the miracle-worker.

You don't believe that it's just a coincidence that all five of these elements appear in both the Jonah and Jesus tales, do you?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC responds:

It is unlikely that hey would not make the connection you are attempting to make…Also, anytime the Gospel writers attempts to point that Jesus fulfilled an old Testament prophesy, they quoted the text. Why wouldn't they mention Jonah if they made the connection?

It would have been appropriate for Mark to remind his slower readers that he wanted them to think of the Jonah story, but his reason for not doing so seems obvious: The connection to Jonah would have been too obvious to most readers to bother to mention. Mark's intelligent readers could not have failed to compare Mark's story to the one in Jonah. There are obvious differences between the two stories, but the similarities are too strong for the readers to overlook. Where else in all of literature or folklore does one find all of the following elements:

1. A raging storm threatens a boat.
2. The hero is asleep on the boat.
3. The hero is awakened and criticized for his apparent lack of concern.
4. The storm is miraculously calmed.
5. The passengers fear the miracle-worker.

How is it possible, RWC, for knowledgeable readers to have failed to see the connection to the Jonah story?

Why was there no mention of prophecy-fulfillment? Well, the stilling of the seas wasn't a prophecy-fulfillment story, so there was no prophecy for Mark to have Jesus quote. Mark's intention here was not to show that prophecy was fulfilled, but instead to show that Jesus had the same power as the Lord. Mark knew his readers would compare Jesus to the Lord and see that just like the Lord, Jesus could calm the seas, too.

Mark did the same thing with the miraculous feeding stories. There was no "prophecy" to quote here, just a story about Elisha's men complaining that they couldn't feed so many men on so little food; Elisha told them to feed the one hundred men anyway, and it was miraculously accomplished, with food left over. (2 Kings 4:42-44). Mark had Jesus' men complain, too, but Jesus told them to feed the five thousand anyway, and it was miraculously accomplished, with food left over(6:32-42). Thus, Mark's readers were expected to recall the Elisha story and recognize that whatever power the Lord had given Elisha, it was given to Jesus many times over.

A fuller exposition of the miraculous feeding stories and their parallels to the Elisha feeding is found at http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/Loaves_and_Fishes.htm

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

I've argued before in this forum that Mark wanted to have Jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in Scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit Jesus. I believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that Mark's story about Jesus stilling the storm was adapted from Jonah, and is fictional.

In Jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which Jonah sleeps, so Mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which Jesus sleeps. In Jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken Jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so Mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken Jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern. The miraculous calming of the sea in Jonah causes the men to fear the Lord, so Mark has the miraculous calming of his sea make the disciples fear Jesus, too. (Jonah 1:4-16, Mark 4:37-41)

Here are the relevant verses:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[S]uch a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up. (Jonah 1:4)

A furious squall came up, and the waves broke over the boat, so that it was nearly swamped. (Mark 4:37)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonah...fell into a deep sleep. The captain went to him and said, "How can you sleep? (Jonah 1:5-6)

Jesus was…sleeping... The disciples woke him and said to him, "Teacher, don't you care if we drown?" (Mark 4:38)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[T]he raging sea grew calm. At this the men greatly feared the LORD (Jonah 1:15-16)

Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this?” (Mark 4:39-41)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

28

Watchtower Letter

by JosephAlward in

i received a letter today from the watchtower explaining their reasons for registering with the dpi.

the last paragraph is perhaps the most interesting, though it may contain no new information.. .

joseph f. alward.

JosephAlward

The 1998 Awake (Nov I think) puts the lie to their not knowing they had more than a library research relationship with the UN. Also the UN has a website which lists that Awake as supportive of the UN. They can't get out of this one.

They've already gotten out of it, I think. If this forum--which seems to be an organization more active in its opposition to the Watchtower than any other in the world--garners only a few posts a week which are critical of the NGO affair, then how few must be the complaints voiced by those who are forbidden to expose themselves to any criticism of the organization, and thus are largely unaware of the controversy?

On the matter of the Awake! articles, there's no doubt that those who are unfamiliar with the Watchtower's aims will view them as favorable and as evidence that the Watchtower seemed to support the goals of the United Nations. However, if one looks carefully, especially at the end of the articles, one finds a clear message: world government is failing to bring peace to the world, and solve the problems of poverty, economic hardship, and other social problems. Mankind must turn to Jehovah and his true channel of communication on earth if there is to be any hope for a cure for the world's problems. This subtle message was received quite clearly by Jehovah's Witnesses, I suspect, many of whom used the articles as proselytizing tools. Thus, I think most Jehovah's Witnesses would understand that the publication of the articles was a form of theocratic warfare, and would heartily approve.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

28

Watchtower Letter

by JosephAlward in

i received a letter today from the watchtower explaining their reasons for registering with the dpi.

the last paragraph is perhaps the most interesting, though it may contain no new information.. .

joseph f. alward.

JosephAlward

I received a letter today from the Watchtower explaining their reasons for registering with the DPI. The last paragraph is perhaps the most interesting, though it may contain no new information.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

37

Prayer, Pascal, and the Anthropic Principle

by JosephAlward in

the anthropic principle .

it's true that life as it exists on earth, and the behavior of the universe as a whole, is finely tuned.

these constants, most physicists believe, were introduced at the time of the big bang, when the universe seems to have been created, or at least, to have begun again another cycle of creation.

JosephAlward

Little Toe,

I believe in the "Big Bang," but scientists cannot rule out the possibility that the primordial energy from which the Bang arose was a collapsed universe. I was talking about a never-ending cycle of expansions and collapses of a universe which always existed. A universe which always existed--in one form or the other--seems no less probable than a god which has always existed and which created the universe.

Another theory I favor has our universe arise from one of the many black holes created in its parent universe, that parent having arisen in a similar fashion. Each universe spawns a number of black holes in the manner of fractals; each universe inherits the physics of its parent, with some variation; in some of these new universes, formation of matter, and therefore, life, is possible; in others, it's not.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html