Posts by JosephAlward

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

aChristian wrote,

I believe God may also have asked Noah to store enough food for all such people.

You never responded to my earlier argument against this claim. Will you do so now? Here it is, again:

Why would the Genesis writer not tell us that God had Noah plan for a possibly huge number of passengers, and that the huge space was not meant for the huge number of animals, two of every type over the face of the globe? Nobody on this list seriously believes in your theory, and there isn't a single Biblical scholar anywhere in the world, or from any time in the past four thousand years, who believes what you do, aChristian. How do you account for that?

Also, how do you explain why the Genesis writer tells us that God told Noah to put food on the ark for the animals and for Noah and his family, and says nothing about putting enough food on the ark to feed all of the possibly huge number of repentant people who might come to the ark?

Do you believe the Genesis writer was inspired by God, or not? Do you believe that he was writing the Word of God, or not? If you believe he was writing the Word of God, then how do you explain the important omissions? Why would God not make sure that his writer made it clear to you and me that the large space was for the repentant sinners who might come, and why did he not tell the writer that he told Noah also to put a huge amount of food on board for those people?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

aChristian,

You comments about Peter, and your belief that God said more to Noah than is recorded, are totally nonresponsive to my questions. Will you please answer the questions I've asked? Maybe you missed them, so I'll repeat parts of my previous post below.

A previous post of mine dealt with the sinners you think God had hoped would repent and come to the ark, which you think Noah made large enough to accommodate all of them, if they came. I pointed out that these sinners had not the slightest idea the flood was coming and that if they repented they could come to the ark and be saved.

Do you deny this? If so, what evidence do you present to support your denial?

Not a single one of these folks turned up at the ark, and it's no wonder they didn't, for there is zero evidence that God had given them any clue that the flood was coming soon, and that they could save themselves by entering the ark, as long as they repented.

If you deny this, too, then what evidence can you show in support?

We have good evidence that these folks were completely in the dark. Thus, we may reasonably conclude that God did not order an extra-large ark in order to accommodate a flood of repentant sinners; the large ark was built to house two of every type of animal on the face of the globe.

Don't tell us about "preachers of righteousness," aChristian, or that part of God's instructions to Noah were left out of the Bible; please tell us why you still think the Lord ordered a huge ark be built because he hoped that a flood of repentant sinners would repent and come on board.

More importantly, please also tell us how God could have expected any of the sinners to know about the chance for redemption and the escape opportunity the ark presented.

They didn't know, did they, aChristian? If you believe they did know, will you please say so, and also tell us how you know this?

If they didn't know, then God would have known that they didn't know, because he knows everything; and, if God knew they didn't know then he would have had no expectation that they would come to the ark, would he?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

Joseph, I think what AC was saying was that [comments snipped]... Let it go.

Faithful, I think it's better to let aChristian explain himself, since it's his argument I'm addressing. Furthermore, I also think it's better for him to ask me to stop questioning him, not you.

I'm still waiting for him to respond to my rebuttal of his claim about the reason God asked Noah to build such a large ark. No part of his comments about a "preacher of righteousness," and nothing you said to help him, in any way comes close to addressing my recent remarks.

Please read my previous post, aChristian, and respond in full to my argument. That argument was a rebuttal of your claim that God ordered Noah to build an extra-large ark not because there needed to be room for two of every type of animal on the face of the globe, but because he wanted there to be room for possibly very large numbers of repentant sinners. If you no longer believe you can defend that position, please say so now, and I will make Faithful happy and "let it go."

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

aChristian's recent response to my recent post doesn't make sense. I've never said a word about Peter, or Noah's righteousness. How does aChristians's comments about his "preacher of righteousness" rebut my argument?

My last post dealt with the sinners aChristian thinks God had hoped would repent and come to the ark, which aChristian thinks Noah made large enough to accommodate all of them, if they came. I pointed out that these sinners had not the slightest idea the flood was coming and that if they repented they could come to the ark and be saved.

Not a single one of these folks turned up at the ark, and it's no wonder they didn't, for there is zero evidence that God had given them any clue that the flood was coming soon, and that they could save themselves by entering the ark, as long as they repented.

On the contrary, we have good evidence that these folks were completely in the dark. Thus, we may reasonably conclude that God did not order an extra-large ark in order to accommodate a flood of repentant sinners; the large ark was built to house two of every type of animal on the face of the globe.

Don't tell us about "preachers of righteousness," aChristian; tell us why you still think the Lord ordered a huge ark be built because he hoped that a flood of repentant sinners would repent and come on board. Also tell us how God could have expected any of the sinners to know about the chance for redemption and the escape opportunity the ark presented; they didn't know, did they, aChristian?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

If God had hoped that a possibly huge number of people who repented might join Noah on the ark, then surely he would have let those people know that the flood was coming, and that they could go to the ark if they repented. But, the evidence shows that these sinners had not the slightest idea of the coming disaster, or that they would be saved if they repented. The conclusion we should reach, then, seem unavoidable: God provided ark space for only eight humans: Noah, his wife, and his three sons and their wives. All the rest of the space in that huge ark was set aside for two of every type of animal on the face of the globe, not just the comparatively few animals in what aChristian imagines is the “land of Noah.”

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

aChristian writes

It is certainly possible that the writer of Genesis did not record the entire conversation between God and Noah on this subject matter.

So, you think the Bible leaves out crucial information relating to the ark and flood? You think perhaps that the writer didn't think words straight from God were important enough for him to bother recording, or that the writer wasn't fully informed? Do you understand foolish such a defense is?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

I offered the following portion of the flood story in rebuttal to aChristian's theory that God ordered such a huge ark to be built because he anticipated there might be a huge number of persons who might repent and enter the ark. I quoted a Genesis verse to point out that God didn't tell Noah to also put a huge amount of food on the ark for these people:

You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you..

This is what aChristian said in response:

The "you" God referred to may have meant all people who Noah thought might end up being on the ark.

That seems utterly preposterous to me, and I'm willing to go out on a limb here and venture the guess that every single true believer reading this post agrees with me. Frankly, aChristian, you are without doubt the worst apologist I've come across in five years, and I've corresponded with hundreds of them. Perhaps you don't appreciate the irony to be found in your own accusation directed at other Christians:

For I believe that when Christians now promote such a teaching....they look very foolish to very many people

I believe it is your "teaching," aChristian, that will look foolish, not theirs.

Do you really imagine that the second "you" underlined above--the one for whom food is to be stored away--is not the same as the first "you"--the one who is to be doing the storing?

Do you not think that the infinitely intelligent god who guided the Genesis writer would have had the sense to tell all his readers that the two "you's" are not the same, if that were really the case? Wouldn't he have known that most--no, all--intelligent persons would assume the two "you's" are the same?

Don't you?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

Giving instructions to Noah, God told him,

You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you [Noah and his family] and for them [the pairs of every kind of animal]." (Genesis 6:13-31)

AChristian asks,

Could it be that Noah was instructed to build an ark big enough to hold every person in the land that was about to be flooded! An ark with room enough for all those who might repent but didn't?

No, that's not possible, AChristian, because as can plainly be seen, God told Noah only to take food for Noah and his family and the animals. If God had expected that there might be some repentant sinners, then he would have told Noah also to put enough food on the ark to feed up to however many people were in the "land of Noah."

AChristian, you responded to this argument by asserting,

Had some people repented at the last minute I'm sure God would have allowed Noah a bit more time to bring some more food on board.

"Some people"? What about vast numbers of people repenting at the last minute? If the infinitely wise and prudent God instructed Noah to build a huge ark just in case a huge number of people would repent--maybe most of them at the last minute, why would such a god not also instruct Noah to gather a huge amount of food for those people? Do you seriously think a god as clever and careful as the one described in the Bible would risk leaving gathering all that food until the last minute before the flood came?

For I believe that when Christians now promote such a teaching....they look very foolish to very many people.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

AChristian writes,

Any message of "righteousness" that God's prophets have ever preached has been one in which wrong doers were urged to repent.

You believe that God gives “wrong doers” a chance to repent? How do you explain why the Lord ordered the murder of infants and suckling babes:

The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. (1 Samuel 15:1-3)

What had the infants and sucklings done that was so wrong, that they had to be slaughtered, if this really happened? How was a suckling supposed to "repent"?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

AChristian asks,

Could it be that Noah was instructed to build an ark big enough to hold every person in the land that was about to be flooded! An ark with room enough for all those who might repent but didn't?

No, it could not be. Genesis (see below) makes it clear that God told Noah he was going to kill all the people besides Noah and his family. God doesn’t say that he was going to kill all the people except those who repent; the all-knowing god of the Bible is infinitely intelligent, so he obviously is smart enough to have known how to say what he really meant, so if he really meant that he was going to kill everyone except Noah and his family--and those who repented, he would have said so.

If that’s not enough proof for you, then note that God said nothing about storing away food for the untold many who might repent; he told Noah to provide food for the animals and for Noah and his family, period. What were the people who repented going to eat? The fact that God doesn’t instruct Noah to plan to have additional food for the unknown numbers of persons who might repent should convince you that God knew that only Noah and his family, and the many animals, were going to be the passengers on that boat. Thus, the boat is as large as it is because the Bible writer wants us to understand that it was going to hold two of every single animal on the face of the globe, not just two each of every kind of animal on Noah's land.

So GOD said to Noah, I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it.... Everything on earth will perish. But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark--you and your sons and your wife and your sons wives with you. You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them." (Genesis 6:13-31)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html