Posts by JosephAlward

43

Was Noah's Flood Local?

by JosephAlward in

achristian believes those who think the bible teaches that the flood was global look foolish.

he wrote, .

i encourage all christians to investigate the possibility that the bible does not really teach that the whole earth was flooded at the time of noah.

JosephAlward

Faithful says,

I'm going to stay out of this discussion.

Don't be so quick to remain silent, Faithful. Remember what the writer of 1 Peter said:

be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1 Peter 3:15)

In my experience true believers will always answer a skeptic if they think they have a viable rebuttal, because they feel that defeating the skeptic gives God a good reason to look upon them with favor. I think in this case, Faithful doesn't have a strong response to offer.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

43

Was Noah's Flood Local?

by JosephAlward in

achristian believes those who think the bible teaches that the flood was global look foolish.

he wrote, .

i encourage all christians to investigate the possibility that the bible does not really teach that the whole earth was flooded at the time of noah.

JosephAlward

Irrespective of the size of the alleged "local" flood, Noah still could not have known where he was relative to the boundary between the flood and the unflooded area; he could only see as far as the horizon, which would have been just a few miles at most. Thus, when the dove came back with the olive leaf, he would not have known whether it came from land in the unflooded region, or from the land from which the waters had recently receded. Thus, it would have not been possible for him to conclude, as the Bible says, that "the waters had receded" unless the flood had been global.

In an attempt in another thread to explain away the dove-olive leaf problem, aChristian offered the opinion that it’s possible that

Noah did not know that the flood was local.

and that this would explain, he believed, why he would send a dove in search of land from which the waters had receded.

However, aChristian seems to have forgotten that when he was challenged just a few days ago to explain why the huge ark didn't mean that two of every animal on the face of the earth were to be put on board, he claimed that ark’s great space was intended by a hopeful God to be filled by a horde of sinners from the “land of Noah” who might repent in time and be given space on the ark.

However, since it was Noah who built the ark, he would have had to have been told by God to make most of the space livable for a horde of humans in aChristian's local flood scenario. Thus, he obviously would have been told by God--or would have concluded on his own--that the flood would only be a local one, since his ark could not carry the potentially millions of sinners from over the surface of the earth who might repent if the flood was global.

Also left unexplained by aChristian is why the Genesis writer, inspired by God to tell us the Word of God, didn't bother to make it clear to thousands of years of Bible readers that God actually intended to restart civilization with all of those sinners which failed to repent, and that the ark actually rode quite high in the water because it was mostly empty.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

I didn't know about the "active" mode; it seems to be great option.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

43

Was Noah's Flood Local?

by JosephAlward in

achristian believes those who think the bible teaches that the flood was global look foolish.

he wrote, .

i encourage all christians to investigate the possibility that the bible does not really teach that the whole earth was flooded at the time of noah.

JosephAlward

KJV writes,

Even if Noah wasn't in the center he could have still been too far away from land for a dove to rest.

Yes, he could have been, but how would he have known where he was?

In an area that large, there are a virtual infinity of places close enough to the boundary of the alleged flooded area for a dove easily to have flown to and returned with an olive tree leaf. Thus, receiving a leaf wouldn't tell Noah anything for sure. Did it come from land from which the flood waters had receded, or did it come from land outside the "land of Noah"?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

aChristian, I'll respond to your comments in the other thread. This one is off-screen and I would rather others besides the handful of us who are stilling paying attention to this thread to benefit from our comments. I will give them the address of this thread so they might read everything that has been said.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

43

Was Noah's Flood Local?

by JosephAlward in

achristian believes those who think the bible teaches that the flood was global look foolish.

he wrote, .

i encourage all christians to investigate the possibility that the bible does not really teach that the whole earth was flooded at the time of noah.

JosephAlward

KJV notes,

The local flood of Mesopotamia was 7 million square miles. I doubt that a dove could have made it to the "boundery". An Albatross yes...a dove no.

That would be true if the ark was at the center of the flooded area, but Noah couldn't have known how far he was from the boundary; it could have been just over his horizon.

By the way, aChristian wishes forum members to know that he has provided many responses to my questions about the local flood in another thread. That thread is now off-screen; its address is

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=23616&site=3

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

4

Useful Information

by JosephAlward in

a simple way to keep track of threads in which one is active is to create a desktop shortcut for those threads.

just click on "members" in the upper left corner of this screen, then select the letter from the alphabet line corresponding to the first letter of your screen name, find your name, then click on the icon representing your threads.

right mouse-click to create a shortcut.

JosephAlward

A simple way to keep track of threads in which one is active is to create a desktop shortcut for those threads. Just click on "members" in the upper left corner of this screen, then select the letter from the alphabet line corresponding to the first letter of your screen name, find your name, then click on the icon representing your threads. Right mouse-click to create a shortcut. Then, whenever you click on the shortcut icon, you'll be shown all of the threads in which you've been active, and will be able to see if there's been any recent activity. This will save you the trouble of having log onto the forum, and possibly having to scroll back for threads which have been pushed off the front page.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

43

Was Noah's Flood Local?

by JosephAlward in

achristian believes those who think the bible teaches that the flood was global look foolish.

he wrote, .

i encourage all christians to investigate the possibility that the bible does not really teach that the whole earth was flooded at the time of noah.

JosephAlward

aChristian believes those who think the Bible teaches that the flood was global look foolish. He wrote,

“I encourage all Christians to investigate the possibility that the Bible does not really teach that the whole earth was flooded at the time of Noah. For I believe that when Christians now promote such a teaching, a teaching which conflicts with all serious scientific evidence, they only succeed in making themselves, and Christianity, look very foolish to very many people.“

I believe that aChristian is the one who is wrong, and I would like to explain why the Genesis writer could not possibly have believed the flood he was describing was local. Here is the relevant verse:

8 Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. 9 But the dove could find no place to set its feet because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. 10 He waited SEVEN more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. 11 When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. (Genesis 8:8-11)

According to aChristian, the flood was local. Well, if that's true than the Genesis writer must have known it was local, too. But, it seems not to be possible that the writer thought that, for the writer describes a Noah who sent a dove to see if the waters had receded from the land. As proof that the waters had receded, Noah would receive an olive leaf.

But, what would that prove? Noah--according to the local flood theory--would have known the flood was local, and that therefore there was unflooded land just outside the flooded "land of Noah," wouldn't he?

Thus, receiving the olive leaf would prove nothing if the flood was local. If the dove returned with a leaf, why wouldn't Noah just assume that the dove had flown outside the boundaries of the "land of Noah," if it were really true that Noah--and the Genesis writer--thought the flood was local?

aChristian doesn't imagine that the dove knew it was only supposed to fly to the boundaries of the "land of Noah," does he?

The local flood theory is obviously ridiculous here; the only way plausible way to reconcile this problem without one having to invent implausible how-it-could-have-been scenarios, and twist the meanings of words, is with a global flood.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

Since this thread has slipped far below the radar, I am taking the local flood theory argument back to the forum in a different thread.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

JosephAlward

I have taken everything you have thrown at me on this subject. And it doesn't appear you have anything left. That being the case, I'm going to bow out of this discussion

Hogwash. Everyone knows that if you could forcefully defend your theory of the local flood, and could make the skeptics look silly, you would jump at the opportunity. You’re leaving the debate because you’re afraid to face the skeptics' evidence.

Furthermore, how do you know I have nothing left? You haven’t shown how you can dismiss my argument about the dove. And, I have many more contradictions to show you; I’m just feeding them to you one at a time.

Also, why do you not wish to respond to the article about the Babylonian myth being the basis for the Genesis flood story? You've yet to say a word about this, and I suspect it’s because you don’t know how to defeat it.

Why do you not try to explain why not one single Bible writer informs the reader that the ark was mainly empty because the sinners God had hoped would show up at the ark never showed up? Don’t you think this part of the “puzzle” should have been provided to the reader for free, rather than have him guess that this is what was on God’s mind--if it really was?

Why does not a single Bible writer tell the readers that even though the plain reading of the Bible implies a global flood, it in fact was just a local one--if it really was?

You've never explained why “all life” in the verse below doesn’t refer to all life under the heavens, but just all life under that patch of the heavens above that patch of land known as the “land of Noah.”

I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens (Genesis 6:17)

Do you really believe that the Bible writer wanted us to know that “the heavens” above is just that part of the heavens above the land of Noah? If so, then why in the world didn’t he explain that to the reader? Don’t you think most intelligent readers would attach to these words their plainest, and most direct meanings, and assume that the writer was talking about ALL of the heavens, not just part of them?

If you believe that the writers were writing under the guidance of God--that they were inspired to write the Word of God, then why wasn’t the God smart enough to know that his writers described what most people would think is a global flood?

The list of hard questions you have avoided--or tried to obscure with smoke screens--is very long. You fool nobody by claiming that you taken everything I’ve thrown at you. You’re running away because you cannot answer the hard questions. Prove me wrong, and begin by explaining away the dove problem, if you can.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html