Posts by JosephAlward

31

An Eye for an Eye: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

many months ago i offered the "eye for an eye" conflict as evidence that the bible cannot be trusted to provide non-contradictory moral guidance.

since that time many new people have joined this forum, so i present this bible "difficulty" once again:.

scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

JosephAlward

Many months ago I offered the "eye for an eye" conflict as evidence that the Bible cannot be trusted to provide non-contradictory moral guidance. Since that time many new people have joined this forum, so I present this Bible "difficulty" once again:

Scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot." (Deuteronomy 19:20-22) However, according to the author of the book of Matthew, not only did Jesus not believe in fighting back against one's enemies, he even wanted his disciples to do good to the ones who hurt them:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."(Matthew 5:38-39)

and

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." (Matthew 5:38-44)

How can the teachings in Deuteronomy and Matthew each be true? On the one hand, one is supposed to show "no pity" in lashing out at those who harm you, but, on the other hand, one is supposed to "do good" to them. These teachings are utterly contradictory. For a those who would argue that the rules laid down by God in the Old Testament became invalid in New Testament times, let us not forget that Paul said that ALL scripture is useful for teaching:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Evidently Matthew was unaware that Paul thought ALL of scripture (and that would include Deuteronomy) was "useful for teaching," for if he had known that Paul evidently believed that the Deuteronomy teaching that one should fight back against one's enemies, he never would have had Jesus say that one should turn the cheek when one is harmed, and do good to the one who harms you.

Thus, either Paul was wrong about all scripture being God-breathed and useful, or else Matthew was wrong about what Jesus said. Either way, the Bible is in error. Are there any forum members who will argue why this is not so?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

29

The Watchtower vs. The Bible

by UnDisfellowshipped in

here is a list of contradictions between what the watchtower society says and what the bible says:.

the watchtower says that judas iscariot left the lord's evening meal (memorial) before jesus instituted the new covenant and passed the wine and bread.. what does the bible say?:.

luke 22:13: they went, found things as he had told them, and they prepared the passover.

JosephAlward

"The Watchtower Society says that Jesus became "The Christ" at His Baptism."

Can you provide a quote from a recent Watchtower publication?

21

What Should I Say ?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

.

i'll be speaking this week at a memorial service for my father, and would like to include passages from the bible which are uplifting and comforting, but which do not refer to god or jesus or have an overt religious message or overtone.

i would appreciate very much if members would suggest passages they believe would be appropriate.. joe.

JosephAlward

Thanks, Simon; I think I can use the "north, south, east, west" line in reference to my father being my only compass when I was very young.

By the way, all, I've just found the Sirah (Sirach, Ecclesiastes) book online, and have just begun to search it. It's at

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/sirach/sirach1.htm

21

What Should I Say ?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

.

i'll be speaking this week at a memorial service for my father, and would like to include passages from the bible which are uplifting and comforting, but which do not refer to god or jesus or have an overt religious message or overtone.

i would appreciate very much if members would suggest passages they believe would be appropriate.. joe.

JosephAlward

Joseph...I also got a suggestion from one of my Catholic friends, he suggested looking into the book of Sirah, of the apocryphal verses, not included in protestant bible BTW. Apparently there is some very beautiful verse in praise of fathers from sons....more condolences frpm the Texas branch.

That's exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to find. I'll check it right away.

Edited by - JosephAlward on 23 June 2002 19:11:11

21

What Should I Say ?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

.

i'll be speaking this week at a memorial service for my father, and would like to include passages from the bible which are uplifting and comforting, but which do not refer to god or jesus or have an overt religious message or overtone.

i would appreciate very much if members would suggest passages they believe would be appropriate.. joe.

JosephAlward

Saint Satan writes, "Wt enterprets it as meaning that at death one has established a reputation/memories in the minds of others, not to mention a lifetime of contributions of some sort to society."

That's good, Saint Susan. As one journeys toward death, one gives birth to many good things.

Edited by - JosephAlward on 22 June 2002 13:0:0

21

What Should I Say ?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

.

i'll be speaking this week at a memorial service for my father, and would like to include passages from the bible which are uplifting and comforting, but which do not refer to god or jesus or have an overt religious message or overtone.

i would appreciate very much if members would suggest passages they believe would be appropriate.. joe.

JosephAlward

I want to thank everyone for their sympathy and their contributions; I plan to use parts of virtually all of them; I especially liked the one from patio: "Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened." That will probably be my ending.

I would be very happy to receive additional suggestions.

21

What Should I Say ?

by JosephAlward in

jw
friends

.

i'll be speaking this week at a memorial service for my father, and would like to include passages from the bible which are uplifting and comforting, but which do not refer to god or jesus or have an overt religious message or overtone.

i would appreciate very much if members would suggest passages they believe would be appropriate.. joe.

JosephAlward

I'll be speaking this week at a memorial service for my father, and would like to include passages from the Bible which are uplifting and comforting, but which do not refer to God or Jesus or have an overt religious message or overtone. I would appreciate very much if members would suggest passages they believe would be appropriate.

Joe

14

How is Salvation Achieved?

by JosephAlward in

save yourself with good works.

jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns.

faith is not enough.

JosephAlward

Nemesis, you have not addressed the question of predestination. The verse below seems to say that whoever is to be saved was chosen long before they were even born, before even the world was created. How does this fit into your theology?

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

14

How is Salvation Achieved?

by JosephAlward in

save yourself with good works.

jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns.

faith is not enough.

JosephAlward

What does the Bible teach one has to do to be saved? Is faith alone sufficient, or must one not only have faith, but also do good works? Is loving your neighbor enough? What about predestination? Were all those to be saved chosen before the world was formed?

What do you think?

Save Yourself with Good Works

Jesus says that one will inherit eternal life if one does the following things: Obey the commandments, and give to the poor all that one owns. Thus, by doing these good things, one gains salvation.

18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: `Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' " 21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Luke 18:18-22)

Good Works Don’t Gain Salvation

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)
8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. (2 Timothy 1:8-9)

Love Your Neighbor to Go to Heaven

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live.” (Luke 10:25-28)

Faith is Not Enough

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. 20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:14)

Have Faith and Be Baptized

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16)

Predestination

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

40

Women are Not the Glory of God

by JosephAlward in

no teaching in the bible is clearer, more consistent, than the one which teaches that women are inferior to men.

below i show that it is taught that the woman was created from man, for man, that man is the glory of god, but woman is not.

furthermore, the evangelist paul says that he'll not abide women teaching men, and he refers to genesis to explain why.

JosephAlward

I am convinced that the apostle Paul was actually a very strong promoter and defender of full equality of the sexes within the Christian Church.

All the folks who desperately need to believe that women are equal to men and want to believe the Bible is inerrant, will surely be convinced right along with you, AChristian. They're probably the same ones who were convinced by your argument last month that the Genesis writer described a local flood, not a global one, and that the ark which sailed carried only a few animals from the "Land of Noah," and was mostly empty because the horde of sinners you say God had hoped would repent and gain passage on the ark, did not repent.

Those who want to believe that Paul taught that homosexuals would go to heaven, and that women could teach in church, can do so only if they blind themselves to the plain words in the Bible which teach otherwise.

I think this thread has run its course.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html