Posts by JosephAlward

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC writes,

You are assuming that Paul wrote his letters to tell people of the daily activites of Jesus. That was the purpose of the Gospels.

We're not talking about "daily activities"; we're talking about the miracles Jesus was alleged to have worked. We talking about his miraculous birth, his arrest, his crucifixion. You don't consider those "daily activities," I'm sure. Now, since Paul was the first Bible writer to record information about Jesus--decades before the first reports of Jesus' miracles appeared in the gospels, and before the story of his arrest--it is impossible to imagine that Paul would not have told his readers all about the most important events since the dawn of time, especially since no one else at that time had yet put such information in print.

RWC, please explain why you think Paul knew about all of these events but decided to let mankind wait twenty years for Mark to tell the stories about the most remarkable man of all time. Isn't the most likely explanation for this is that Paul didn't know about the miracle stories and the arrest. If not, why not? Finally, if Paul did not know about these stories, they must not have occurred.

RWC claims,

Alot of what you are saying Paul did not know are contained in his sermons in Acts.

Really? Show me where it shows that Paul knew that Jesus was born of a virgin, baptized by John, fed five thousand, then four thousand, cured the blind and the deaf, changed water to wine, expelled the demons into the herd of pigs, walked on water, calmed the seas, was betrayed by Judas, and arrested by the Romans. All of these events are among the most important ever to have occurred in the history of mankind--if they really occurred, so if Paul knew about them he certainly would have mentioned them somewhere in his writings, especially since he was the very first Bible writer to write about Jesus.

RWC, please show us the verses which you think show that Paul knew about the events mentioned above.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

Paul...learned of Jesus through Peter the eyewitness

One gets the impression that RWC has never read the Pauline letters, for if he had he would know what G.A. Wells, in his book The Historical Evidence for Jesus [pp. 22-23], knows:

The...Pauline letters...are so completely silent concerning the events that were later recorded in the gospels as to suggest that these events were not known to Paul, who, however, could not have been ignorant of them if they had really occurred.
These letters have no allusion to the parents of Jesus, let alone to the virgin birth. They never refer to a place of birth (for example, by calling him 'of Nazareth'). They give no indication of the time or place of his earthly existence. They do not refer to his trial before a Roman official, nor to Jerusalem as the place of execution. They mention neither John the Baptist, nor Judas, nor Peter's denial of his master. (They do, of course, mention Peter, but do not imply that he, any more than Paul himself, had known Jesus while he had been alive.)
These letters also fail to mention any miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, a particularly striking omission, since, according to the gospels, he worked so many...
Another striking feature of Paul's letters is that one could never gather from them that Jesus had been an ethical teacher... on only one occasion does he appeal to the authority of Jesus to support an ethical teaching which the gospels also represent Jesus as having delivered.

RWC, if it's true--as you claim--that Paul learned about Jesus from Peter, who you believe knew all about the events described above by G. A. Wells, why do we find in Paul's writings not a single solitary mention of any of the extremely important events described by Wells? Since Paul's writings are the earliest Bible writers which described Jesus Christ, rather than telling us virtually nothing about the life of Jesus, don't you think that he would have told his readers everything he knew? Don't you think the fact that he was virtually silent is very strong evidence that he knew about none of those events, and since he would have known if they had actually happened, we should assume they didn't happen? If not, why not?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

Change the previous post to: "but have difficulty accepting that the gospel stories are NOT literally true"

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC asks,

What scholars have made the same conclusion that you did that this Jesus account was a made up copy of the Jonah account?

Why don’t you join the Kata Markon discussion forum I described yesterday--the one for professors and graduates students who specialize in the Gospel of Mark, and just ask the question, “Do forum members generally believe it’s true that the majority of university Biblical scholars believe that some of Mark’s gospel stories are based on scriptural or other antecedents, and are fictional?”

It would be better if you obtained the answer directly from them, don’t you think? Don’t be shy about explaining that you’re a true believer but have difficulty accepting that the gospel stories are literally true; there are some very religious members of that forum who will deal with you much more sensitively than I have. Unless you’re afraid of what you will hear, you will do it.
--------------------------------------------------------

Paul...learned of Jesus through Peter the eyewitness

RWC believes that Peter told Paul about Jesus, and then Paul told Mark, but I suspect that he’s just repeating what he was told was true by other true-believers who believed what they were told, too, but none of them had ever come to any independent conclusions through their own research. One gets the impression that RWC has never read the Pauline letters, for if he had he would know what G.A. Wells, in his book The Historical Evidence for Jesus [pp. 22-23], knows:

The...Pauline letters...are so completely silent concerning the events that were later recorded in the gospels as to suggest that these events were not known to Paul, who, however, could not have been ignorant of them if they had really occurred.
These letters have no allusion to the parents of Jesus, let alone to the virgin birth. They never refer to a place of birth (for example, by calling him 'of Nazareth'). They give no indication of the time or place of his earthly existence. They do not refer to his trial before a Roman official, nor to Jerusalem as the place of execution. They mention neither John the Baptist, nor Judas, nor Peter's denial of his master. (They do, of course, mention Peter, but do not imply that he, any more than Paul himself, had known Jesus while he had been alive.)
These letters also fail to mention any miracles Jesus is supposed to have worked, a particularly striking omission, since, according to the gospels, he worked so many...
Another striking feature of Paul's letters is that one could never gather from them that Jesus had been an ethical teacher... on only one occasion does he appeal to the authority of Jesus to support an ethical teaching which the gospels also represent Jesus as having delivered.

RWC, how could Mark have learned his gospel stories from Paul if Paul didn’t know them? If you believe--contrary to the evidence--that Paul did know about the events in Jesus’ life that would later be put in Mark’s gospel, exactly why do you believe this? Is it on faith alone, or because someone you trust told you so?
-------------------
RWC, I asked how old you were because just as a triage officer will sort injured people into groups based on their likely benefit from immediate medical treatment, I'm trying to judge by your age whether you will ever be able to understand what I and the other skeptics on this list are trying to show you. Most folks in your position are born into fundamentalism, but escape from it is nevertheless fairly common up to about the age of 25 or so; beyond that, there’s little hope. You’re 38, so it’s likely you will hold your beliefs until you die; it’s ironic that you will take great consolation in this.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC writes,

If you are going to raise the theory that Mark made up the stories, you must show that he did. You must not ignore the evidence that he was an eyewitness, you must not ignore the evidence that he was killed for his "made up stories", and you must not ignore the portions of the Gospels where he says what he is writing is true.

Where is your evidence that "Mark" was an eyewitness, or that he was killed, and where did he say "what he is writing is true."

How old are you?

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

Your argument makes no sense to me, Yadirf. I can usually guess what a person is trying to say, but not in this case.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

Now WHY in the world should the "Bible writers" really NEED to tell the readers about something that is so plainly obvious that even a child would have no trouble reaching the right conclusion about?

You're looking at this from the point of view of the fundamentalist who believes all of the Bible stories are literally true. Naturally, if you believe that Jonah reallylived inside the belly of a big fish for three days, you have to assume that this was done by the Lord, because you know such things just don’t happen. However, folks in those days didn't blindly accept on faith that everything described in Scripture was literally true; they understood that the writers often used parabolic language and symbolisms to make their point.

When the Bible writer described the conversation between a donkey and its master, Balaam, he was careful to let the reader know that this was not a parable; the donkey had actually spoken, and it was because the Lord made him do it. (Numbers 22:21-35) Thus, an event that otherwise would be dismissed as fantastic by many readers is accepted by some as true because they're told God made it happen.

The same is true about the story of the sun being stopped in its tracks to give Joshua’s army more daylight to defeat his enemy: the writer made sure the readers knew that this astonishing event was caused by the Lord. (Joshua 10:1-12), otherwise some readers might have assumed that the story was not literally true.

As for Jonah being swallowed by the big fish, there would have been many at that time who would just assume that the story was not literally true, because people just don’t live in a fish’s belly for three days. If the writer had been guided by the omnipotent and all-wise God, that god would have been smart enough to know that some readers would have assumed that Jonah did not literally live inside the fish for three days, so God, in his infinite wisdom, would have had the writer explain to the readers that the Lord had worked a miracle to prevent Jonah from being suffocated, or dissolved in the digestive juices of the big fish. The fact that the god did not have the writer say this is good evidence that the writer never wished for his readers to believe the story was literally true.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC,

Of course there are differences between the two tales, but my argument is based on the unique features of each tale. Based on your logic, Mark would have had to have Jesus swallowed by a big fish in order for you to accept my argument. By the way, while Mark did not make specific reference to Jesus being swallowed, just as Jonah was, Matthew did:

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:39-41)

This shows that Matthew expected his readers to be familiar with the story about Jonah and to compare what happened to Jonah to what was going to happen to Jesus. Is it not extremely likely, then, that other gospel writers--such as Mark--would likewise expect their readers to recall the Jonah story? If your answer is Yes, then why would you not believe that when Mark made all those references to unique events in the Jonah story that he did not want his readers to be reminded of the Jonah story? Are you really blind to this obvious connection?

You suggest that I need to show that the two stories are the same in order to prove that Mark wanted his readers to think about the Jonah story when they read his Jesus story. But, it clearly isn't necessary for the two stories to be the same; all one needs to do is show that certain features of the Jonah story are so unique in literature and folklore that their appearance in Mark's story could not have failed to remind the readers of Jonah. In all of recorded human history, there are only two places where we find a sleeping sailor who is scolded by his shipmates for his seeming lack of concern, and then actions taken by that sailor leading to a calming of the sea, followed by the passengers reacting in fear.

Only fundamentalists who deliberately blind themselves to the obvious can fail to see that Mark wanted his readers to think of Jonah--not to think the two stories are identical, of course--but merely to be reminded of some of the things which happened in the Jonah story.

Why did Mark want his readers to be reminded of Jonah? Well, I think it's obvious: Mark wanted his readers to recall the calming of the sea by the Lord in Jonah so they would seriously consider the possibility that Mark was right--that Jesus was the son of God, since he, too, could still the sea, just like the Lord did in the Jonah story.

What you have not done, RWC, is explain why you do not think that the five elements are unique and appear nowhere else in literature or folklore except in the Jonah and Jesus stories.

Do you agree that in both stories we find a sleeping sailor who is scolded by his shipmates for his lack of concern for his safety?

Do you agree that in both stories, after being awakened, the sea is calmed?

Do you agree that after the sea is calmed, rather than feel a sense of closeness to the divine one whose power saved them, they feel fear instead?

Do you agree that you know of no other stories since the beginning of time--beside the Jonah and Jesus ones--that have all of these very unique elements?

If you answer Yes to all of these questions, please explain to the forum why you still believe that Mark probably did not base his Jesus story on the Jonah story--if that's what you still believe.

Now, you asked for "biblical scholars" who support my view. I suggest you read "Gospel Fictions," by Randel Helms, for example, or join the discussion forum for professors and graduate students called "Kata Markon." You don't have to participate in the discussion there; you may just lurk if you wish. But, if you wish to know whether there are any scholars who support my view that Mark's gospels are pure fiction, all you have to do is identify yourself and ask your question. It's easy to join; just go to the website below, then click on "Archives." While you're there, take some time to check the professional background of the moderators and get a sense of the qualifications of those who participate in the discussion; then go to the archives. You don't have to join the list to read all of the posts which have been made in the last few years. But, if you don't join, you won't be able to ask your question: "Are there any Biblical scholars who believe that the gospels are fiction?"

If you're sincere about wanting to know what Biblical scholars think, say, and write about the gospels, you will join that list and ask your questions. I hope to see you on that list this evening. If you have any trouble finding the forum, or joining it, let me know, and I'll provide whatever assistance you need. Please let me know once you're on board.

The website address is http://www.ibiblio.org/GMark/

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

don't you think that its possible that the One that directed the fish so that it would swallow Jonah could at the same time provide the means for Jonah to survive while inside the fish, in the same miraculous fashion?

If the omnipotent god of the Bible existed, then of course that's possible, but if the Bible writers really expected their readers to believe this story, they would have told the readers that it was through a miracle from God that Jonah was allowed to live. The writers would not have let the readers reach the natural conclusion that the story was a fable if they really wanted them to believe it actually happened.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

54

Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm

by JosephAlward in

i've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.

i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.

in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.

JosephAlward

RWC writes,

You must present some proof that the second story is made up

All that a skeptic can do is present evidence that the story is made up; he can never prove conclusively that the event never happened. I've given you three examples of stories which Mark seems to have copied from Scripture, and all you've done is say that you don't believe I've proved my case. You need to do more than that if you wish to counter my argument. I've shown you five quite unique elements in the Jonah story which also are found in Mark's story, and you have not yet told us why you think these elements are not unique and why you think the correspondences are just coincidental; until you do that, no one is going to take your objections seriously. You also need to understand that my argument is not based on just one pair of parallels. I've presented the miraculous feeding stories, and the David-Jesus parallels, but you've largely ignored them, making no attempt to show why one should believe the parallels are coincidental. It's apparent to everyone, I think, that you are not doing a good job defending the Bible; unless you start presenting analyses which are more substantive, more comprehensive, and which address the particulars of my arguments, I will just ignore you.

Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

* http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html