the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
What doubts did you entertain, Syl? I'm curious.
Paul's reasoning used to be undeniable to me as well, but only because it was introduced to me before any other logic. It was the first explanation I'd heard so I adopted it. But now that I can think without being bound to my presupposition, it's not so undeniable.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
*sigh*
From. God's. Standpoint. No. One. Is. Innocent.
We all became transgressors and died in Adam's loins whe he disobeyed the stated command of YHWH.
*sigh*
I used to think that too, Syl. Back when I was a JW and kept my critical thinking in a shoe box under the bed.
I dont' mean to get off the topic but I would like to address your argument with a quote from Thomas Paine:
If I owe a person money, and cannot pay him, and he threatens to
put me in prison, another person can take the debt upon himself, and
pay it for me; but if I have committed a crime, every circumstance
of the case is changed; moral Justice cannot take the innocent for the
guilty, even if the innocent would offer itself. To suppose Justice to
do this, is to destroy the principle of its existence, which is the
thing itself; it is then no longer Justice, it is indiscriminate
revenge.
If you remove your presupposition, I think you'd agree that for a couple to sin and their kids to have to pay for it (in a perfect justice system) is ridiculous. Unfortunately, this will return to the circular logic of "we can't presume to judge God's just ways" and so on....
Again, the parallel's between the WT Society and the Bible are stunning sometimes. And yet it makes sense since the WT is steeped in scripture.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
I mean, if I was God wouldn't I at least protect those that can't protect themselves ???
These were questions that I asked, that I DEMANDED answers for from God and I demanded with anger and attitude to boot !
Pride does indeed, goeth before the fall.
Psac, have you ever noticed the parallel between the WT Society and the Bible? Both focus on controlling the masses. Both are very good at what they do. Neither should be questioned, lest you fall victim to pride. How that stifles logic and reason, eh?
I'm sorry you didn't reach the more likely conclusion when you realized how inhumane it would be for a God of love to supposedly kill children. Why demand answers from a supposedly omniscient, benevolent being... before conducting an unbiased study of the contradictions and asking how you know your source of information about God is even accurate?
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
Syl, the context argument does not minimize the issue here. Children were STILL either enslaved or killed.
A god who commands the slaughtering of innocent babies and children is not a god of love.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
Who are we to sit in judgment of God Almighty when, on a daily basis, we allow children and adults to suffer and die needlessly? If we have the power to put a person on the moon, surely we can care for those who need it most!
Syl...... one reason I left the WT is because they claimed to be God's channel of communication. For them to claim such a position, I felt they should be held to a higher standard than a typical Joe Schmoe. If they want to hold that title, fine! But I expect them to get their crap right. You did too, yes?
In the same vein, I would expect God's standards to FAR surpass our own. The whole "god's ways are higher than ours" is a great line to whitewash everything from condoned rape to slavery to the death of children but it would make much more sense if God, being the epitome of love, were more LOVING or MERCIFUL than me since I'm well below the epitome of love. It's not "his ways are higher and lower than ours", they're just supposed to be higher.
Really what it comes down to for me is removing presuppositions before we start using the "who are we to judge God" line. When I honestly suppressed my childhood presupposition that the bible is from god, I realized that the contortionist feats I'd used to rationalize a god of love doing horrible things.... was simply me living in denial.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
Which is more heinous or more humane, physically killing children outright or killing them mentally, morally, emotionally, and, yes, sometimes physically over a period of time?
Do you think any Israelite family would have loved and nurtured the children of their enemies? In my opinion, God, in His infinite wisdom, did those children a favor by sparing them future suffering.
Syl, it would seem that God, in His infinite wisdom, both 'physically killed children outright' AND killed them "mentally, morally, emotionally", too. This is just one example in which the enemy children were to be taken "as plunder", which was the "future suffering" I think you mention above:
10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
At least I am staying on topic ....Why did God kill children?
Fair enough. Here's why *I think* God killed children:
I'm sure there are additional points that could be made here but I'll leave it at that for now as it's 1:20AM and I've gotta get some sleeps.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
Caliber: For example, I have no right to take an innocent life. For me to do so would be murder. But God has no such prohibition. He can give and take life as He chooses.
The logic here is apalling. I'll quote the same thing I said earlier....
SBC: ...just because someone has a right to do something doesn't mean that exercising that right is the loving thing to do. Last time I checked, drowning children wasn't a sign of compassion for them.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
Again these are not my thoughts but it all makes sense to me!!
Considering the holes in your response, I understand your disclaimer.
strangely I don't find God mentioned in your account above
That's part of the point. See, god gets angry when children tease his prophet and he has two she-bears maul them.... but when a horde of sadomasochistic men want to gang-rape some visitors to their village, well, god's got better things to do than intervene in THAT.
Also, if god didn't approve of the Levite or Gibeonite host's actions (in offering up the concubine and virgin daughter, respectively), why didn't he deal some law against them for being spineless cowards?
Under similar circumstances, Lot pulled the same pansy-ass stunt but remained approved by god (in that he was not punished for it). So while not directly named in these accounts, god hardly conveyed any disgust for Lot's actions (or the Levite's) in the bible - his "moral guidebook."
As for the slaying of innocent children relating to the "prohibition of assimilation to pagan nations"... that argument leaks like a sieve when you consider other passages in which "God's nation" was given permission to take the enemies virgins (and sometimes children) as part of their spoil:
These passages show the flaws with the above argument regarding "prohibition of assimilation." And, coincidentally, these verses also show god's "unchanging standards" regarding rape.
the atheists and bible deniers love to talk about how hateful and murderous god is.
i suggest the following.
i believe that the children that were killed in warfare by the israelites were taken to heaven with god.
Caliber, you sound like you're in denial. First of all, this isn't simply the Canaanites getting slaughtered. You're counting the hits and forgetting the misses. If Yahweh was compassionate, then he is"evidently" also bipolar.
Here's a thread post that never really got resolved the other day with Inkie on the same subject....
Inkie: Have you yourself actually and in truth read for yourself the accounts written in Bible about how wicked the Egyptians and the inhabitants of Canaan were?
Me: Yes, I have read those bible accounts. Based on what I read in the bible, Canaanites (not necessarily all) did evil things, Egyptians (not necessarily all) did evil things, and Israelites (not necessarily all) did evil things. Yahweh was no Gandhi either. If cleansing the land was his goal, surely an all powerful god could've executed his attacks with the skill and accuracy of a scalpel instead of a shotgun.
I see no justification for killing babies and children just because they were be born to heathen parents.
I see no justification for rape.
I see no justification for slavery.
I see no justification for wiping out entire nations. (I don't care how wicked most of the people supposedly are.)
BTW, speaking of disgusting atrocities of the OT, I thought it was funny that there are two very similar accounts in the bible (Judges 19 and Genesis 19) in which a man accepts visitors in his home and some of the townsmen come to his house and demand that he send out his male visitor(s) so they can rape them? But instead of, I dunno, say.... calling down evil on these sexual predators to have two she-bears tear them to pieces (that's silly, I know), the man of the house offers his virgin daughter(s) for the townsmen to have their way. The conclusion of Judges 19 account is especially gruesome when the Levite finds his dead, gang-raped concubine the next AM and cuts her into 12 pieces, Dahmer-style, and sends a piece to each tribe. But I suppose that's all poetry. Or or maybe the scribes or copyists added that in? Or maybe it was a mistranslation?
No, wait, we can accept that as literal because God has the authority and power so whatever he does is A-OK. We should be grateful that we can show our ugly faces in his presence! I've heard this logic somewhere else.... let's see... ah, yes, physically abused women.
You folks who say, "As the creator of everything only he has the knowledge and right to decide," or ,"god gave us life, he has the right to take it,"... that's acceptable logic. But just because someone has a right to do something doesn't mean that exercising that right is the loving thing to do. Last time I checked, drowning children wasn't a sign of compassion for them.
Instead of making excuses for God like JWs make excuses for the Society, I choose to face reality, however unsatisfying that might seem.
