Posts by SweetBabyCheezits

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

TEC and Psac, I just realized I was kinda vague in my question....

Psac, you don't believe Islam is the true faith, correct? So regardless of whether a Muslim chooses to be a peaceful moderate or a radical terrorist, the Koran is just a book, right? No divine inspiration or message there? I thought that was a given but if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

I'm talking about a Muslim identifying flaws in his reasoning that lead him to realize he just accepted the most prominent religion in his childhood environment and that Islam and the Koran are the product of man, not god.

The point I wanted to make is that critical thinking would be his ally; stripping back presupposition and bias. If he doesn't do that FIRST, then questioning his cherished beliefs will only lead to bias confirmation and he'll think he's proven his faith to himself. It has to be introspective and he has to analyze his thinking. Would you agree?

50

Hi Everyone! My introduction.

by cherrypye in

jw
friends

i am a former dub, born and raised and left at the age of 18. i was baptised at nine, aux pioneer, regular pioneer and around 16 started to see the light.

my parents give me the heave-ho the day i hit 18 (at midnight, to be precise.

) i was marked at 17 for dating a "worldly".

SweetBabyCheezits

Welcome aboard and thanks for sharing your story!!

36

(For Christians) Why should Muslims question the Koran?

by SweetBabyCheezits in

i'm wondering about this hypothetical scenario:.

suppose..... a young muslim (non-radical/moderate) in a middle-eastern country has no access to the bible or any form of christianityhe's keenly aware of other non-christian faiths and the loyal adherents of those faithsaside from a blind faith in the koran (and, in turn, allah) he is an intelligent and logical thinkerhe doesn't see any flaws in his reasoning, no matter how illogical it may seem to outsidersokay, now based on the above suppositions..... what kind of introspective thinking might lead him to identify his own flawed reasoning so that he eventually realizes the koran is not a revelation of god?

is such a thing possible?

SweetBabyCheezits

Hi, all. I'm wondering about this hypothetical scenario:

Suppose....

a young Muslim (non-radical/moderate) in a middle-eastern country has no access to the Bible or any form of Christianity
he's keenly aware of other non-Christian faiths and the loyal adherents of those faiths
aside from a blind faith in the Koran (and, in turn, Allah) he is an intelligent and logical thinker
he doesn't see any flaws in his reasoning, no matter how illogical it may seem to outsiders

Okay, now based on the above suppositions....

What kind of introspective thinking might lead him to identify his own flawed reasoning so that he eventually realizes the Koran is not a revelation of god?
Is such a thing possible? Or maybe highly improbable?
In either case, should he be held accountable by the Judeo-Christian god for his perspective (and actions or lack of action) since he has been immersed in Islamic culture/environment his entire life?

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

Can you conceive why God would? I mean, why would an Omnipotent being lie about anything at all?

Okay, I'll humor you if you humor me, PSac. Suppose he would lie about being perfect because he isn't. So if he was imperfect, he could lie and make up all kinds of crazy stuff, perhaps a whole book of it. And how would we know otherwise? That's my own little reductio ad absurdum.

If that sounds illogical to you, I totally agree. But please tell me how that line of reasoning would be any less logical than a god being perfect and omni-everything, yet still needing praise and worship. An omnipotent god killing children and condoning rape and committing genocide?

Occam's Razor should be applied here.

You're not obligated to answer the question I posed earlier but I'd really like to hear what a devout Christian has to say. I should probably create a new thread since it's off topic.

Is there any way he [a Muslim] might be able to identify the flaws in his reasoning (without, say, any significant knowledge of the bible or Christiantity)?

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

Can you conceive why God would? I mean, why would an Omnipotent being lie about anything at all?

No, you're right. That's just silly. I mean, we can state (with no disclaimers) that if man can think of it, God can do it. But if we conceive something perplexing, well, then I need to justify WHY he would ever want to do that.

People who are better educated than I would call this reductio ad absurdum.

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

I once read that if a human mind can conceive of something then that means that God can do it.

Psac, what if I conceive that God can lie?

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

Wow, thank you, QWT. And welcome to JWN! I'm trying my best to work through this journey with as little bias as possible.

Your third paragraph sounds like sooo many conversations I've had with the aforementioned relative. At the beginning of one conversation, we were talking about other religions and I pointed out some of the good fruits that one might see in Mormonism.

She replied with an illustration: "Suppose you wanted to call me on the phone and you got just ONE NUMBER wrong, would you reach me? No! It's the same with these religions. They may have some things right but if they're just one 'number' off, they cannot reach God!" Later in the conversation, I pointed out a serious flaw in WT doctrine and she said, "Well the identifying mark is LOVE so you need to put that issue behind you. It isn't the important thing." I then quoted her illustration back to her. If I recall, some circular logic was then pulled in and around and round we went.

Yet some users on this forum do that, disregarding the effect it might have on someone who is just "auditing" the website. All that disrespect does is strengthen the resolve of those peeking out of the JW organization to remain close, because the world outside is dark and demonic.

I remember thinking the same thing when I first joined, that a lack of civility might only cofirm what JW lurkers' have heard about "apostates". That said, I have been guilty a time or three of letting things fly on here when I'm venting about JW stuff. So it's good to get a reminder, QWT.

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

PSac and Tammy, first of all, please don't take my comments here as angry or aggressive.

I only brought up the Islamic faith because you no doubt realize the Muslim believes his reasoning is solid that the Koran is from the creator and Allah is god. I had no intention of getting into a debate on whether Islam is a violent religion. Here was the question I wanted to pose:

SBC: Is there any way he might be able to identify the flaws in his reasoning (without, say, any significant knowledge of the bible or Christiantity)?

As for your comments below, Psac....

SO why do SOME focus on the "bad parts"?

Because they choose to, because for them hate is more of a driving force than love, intolerance more of a driving for than tolerance.

And they are, unfortunately, not alone.

That's a bold statement coming from someone who had to recognize the "bad parts" of the WT Society to realize it was not directed by god. Surely we all recognized that, right? In fact, I tried to point out the "bad parts" of the Society to a JW relative and what did she say?

"I only look at the good things in the organization. Why do you insist on picking out the negative stuff? You're just looking for a reason to get out."

My relative's defense was very similar to yours above, Psac. If I exposed a negative aspect of the org, she denied it or rationalized it, and then hit me with an ad hominem attack. Please think about what you're implying.

Bear in mind, I realize some folks prejudge all Muslim people because of what they read in the Koran or based on the actions of a radical Islamic sect. I've argued against that on other threads. But that doesn't make the Koran any less wrong or uninspired by god.

My reasons for highlighting the negative things in the bible, in the Koran, and in the WT are all the same.

111

When God breaks his own laws

by Nickolas in

if one assumes that god made the universe it follows that he made it according to a very complex set of physical laws that determine how things work.

the quest to identify and understand those physical laws is at the very forefront of science and great strides have been made over the past few centuries, in particular during the last century.

we have known for only a few centuries that the earth rotates on its axis and orbits around the sun along with a number of other planets, more recently that the solar system is located in a radial arm of a spiral galaxy swirling around some enormous black hole.

SweetBabyCheezits

I do however apologize that I made you feel like you're arguing with a JW family, I meant no disrespect nor attempted to drudge up bad memories/feelings from your personal experiences.

Annnd now I just feel bad for that comment. Dude, no need to apologize. I didn't mean it like that at all. I just meant that my parents could rationalize away ANY negative thing that I showed them about the Society and sometimes I feel like Christians are able to do the same with the bible and Yahweh.

I guess what breaks down to it is this, it's a matter of one's own faith as well as one's own personal experiences.

I respect your attitude, Yiz. Someday I hope I can mellow out like Gladiator.

51

Ghosts and Spirits

by Cold Steel in

i've been watching the bio channel lately and hearing people relate their stories of ghosts and the supernatural.. although i think some people do experience demonic presences, i think some people (for whatever reason) find it difficult to move on.

jws believe everything is caused by "demons," but there are many near death experiences where people clearly seem to see family members who have helped them and who have manifested themselves with feelings of peace and serenity.

since i don't believe that satan can duplicate these feelings of well being, i was wondering what you think of such manifestations, good or bad.. also, have you ever had any experiences, again, good or bad, in your lives?

SweetBabyCheezits

I do NOT think this is "just imagination" but something more, something different and deeper.

I agree, MS. The ideomotor effect and sleep paralysis are just two internal functions that have caused otherwise normal, intelligent, sober people to think some spirit creature was in their presence.

Good posts, BTW. I think so much misinformation/counterknowledge comes from soaking up faulty presuppositions early in life and then trying to build on top of that.

"The Bible contains instructions from the creator of all things."
"Mom and Dad are JWs and my parents are the authority, therefore the WT has the right understanding of the Bible!"
"Demons like to harass people. It says so in the Bible. Therefore when something inexplicable happens, it must be the work of demons."

Seems to me, removing that first presupposition and looking at the bible without bias is a real time-saver.