Posts by jst2laws

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

Iching,
You said this "very organisation whose "truths" "achievments" and "accomplishments" you are investing so much effort in defending - will have you out on the street - on your ass - DF'd"

I cannot speak for Normie, but I am not 'defending an organization'.
I am supporting an ideal and a people who I believe sincerely seeking God on a level far above their previous affiliation. As you can tell from my previous post, I admit nearly every flaw and atrocity pointed out, even have been a victim of some of them. But with all the cautionary and accusatory remarks from others, few have acknowledged the good they have gained from association with Jehovah's Witnesses.
You do however make a good point. I do not expect anyone here will treat me as harshly upon exposure as the leader of my people.
jst2laws

Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 22:50:39

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

Dear Promqueennot,
They have caused harm. I’m not going to defend them in these matter. People have died needlessly. And these are area that they had no business regulating. Please understand I am not here to defend an organization. Only that an association of brothers have been attracted here by an assortment of teachings almost unique. They were borrowed from others but accumulated among these people to an extent that drew us all at one time to an “organization” that soon turned bad like all organizations run by men. (Do not put your trust in nobles, Psalms 146:3) But God is not stupid. He knows this better than we do. He uses flawed associations anyway.

As to your comments on blood, you are right. Who are they to decide? They are back pedaling now, but it is too late for many. I hope you are not one who suffered loss do to this policy. If so, my heart goes out to you.

Your thoughts on perfectionism touch on a subject I want to talk about later. This is a terribly dangerous topic with possibly more casualties that any other issue.

Keep an open mind. I guess the biggest issue I’m concerned with- is bitterness of having been hurt causing us to reject the lock, stock and barrel. I will try to explain this latter, Monica. Meanwhile fight bitterness. Its not good for you.
Jst2laws

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

Achristian,
I love the scriptural arguments. If a solution is to be found in line with the scriptures, scriptural principles and precedents must be allowed to guide.

This has been a very Christian discussion of important issues from differing perspective. I thank you all for the kind input.
Jst2laws

Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 18:16:49

Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 18:25:39

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

I can find little to object to in all your comments. I especially liked the thought from JT that we started out good and got off with our own self importance. And Achristian has made good points about the Kingdom News. Our version of the message seemed to facilitate our desire to rule peoples lives.

But who else among major religious organizations taught us to take a stand against participation in the worlds carnage such as world war. Is this not good. And anywhere you travel in the world Jw’s have friends they can trust. Sometime perhaps we can have a discussion on some of the good points on which we stand out.(Normie mentioned a few)

As was brought out, what does the overwhelming evidence leave us to conclude. This is the best opportunity in human history to examine all the facts in a worldwide forum. Most here are well prepared to present the side of the issue that most JW’s never get, are forbidden to discover. That fact alone is an argument against the org. That has to got to change. But I fear some of us may have swung too far the other way and have forgotten some clear and simple teachings that attracted us in the first place. Is it not true that more of you than Normie wish we could change the leadership or else take the good out, some teachings and the good people, and we could all be part of that international Christian Congregation without the harshness, mind control and intolerance?

Jst2laws

Normie, Thanks for the support. I really felt alone here. Hang on. And please don’t get discouraged if you notice I have strong doubts about 1914 and our understanding of the Kingdom. But we agree we have something here to stay with and hoping for change.

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

You were all much kinder than I expected. Let me try to address the points you made that stand out. I'm overwhelmed with your comments so please do not be hurt if I do not specifically reply to yours.
First, I agree with almost everything said above.
Yes the meetings are boring and the brothers keep repeating those religious platitudes. Yes, we are arrogant and self-righteous. Yes, we have been so wrong on so many subjects.
But the first 15 years of the Christian Congregation also had problems of bigotry, and false teachings. The attempt to resolve them in 49 CE resulted in some good but the Judaizers still subverted the faith of many for years after. It only got worse until less than a century and the congregation was corrupted. But it was still the congregation God used to spread the Good News.

I'm only suggesting that God has always used flawed men and flawed organizations. How can we totally dismiss this one because we have discovered it is flawed?

jst2laws

Edited by - jst2laws on 24 March 2001 0:15:43

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

ICHING
"i can't help having the premonition that you may be about to receive a crash course in understanding this"

I anticipate a beating. I try to see some good in all things. I appreciate the many things I have learned as a JW. I came from a religion that is at least as tainted in corruption and false teachings, even conspiracy to hide the truth as is also true of the WTBTS, yet I appreciate what I learned from both. Show me a perfect religion and I'm ready to jump. My faith is based in the Bible, which gives me appreciation for what I have learned as a Witness but also puts me at odds with the borg. Even if I am caught and expelled, I cannot deny that I have learned much from Jehovah's Witnesses. So I risk a beating from my brothers, as well as
a 'crash course' from friends here. I'm not ignorant of the facts but expect disapproval from both sides.
Who well be the kinder?
jst2laws

102

In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??

by jst2laws in

jw
friends

we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.

would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?

it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

jst2laws

We hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument. Would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept? It would also be wrong, as the WT does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.

So would it be wrong to accept the fact that the WTS, despite its flaws, has many good scriptural truths to share. Can we reject what they have pressed to the world: God has a name, His Kingdom is to solve man’s problems, the Earth is to become a paradise as God purposed, man will live endlessly on Earth as intended, those who died will return in a resurrection of the dead rather that burn in hell, and this good news is to be preached in all the earth. With all its flaws, no one else is doing this internationally, staying out of politics and wars in each nation, except Jehovah’s Witnesses.

We may not fully understand what the kingdom is, may use God’s name to the extent we rob it of some due dignity, have pushed for holiness and righteousness and obedience to the point of overlooking faith in the ransom as the means to true righteousness, and most of all the leadership have become obsessed with their presumption of speaking for God. I’m embarrassed, but I step back and still see a people God it using, at least as a dragnet. (mat. 13:47-50) Who else is teaching so many of the basic truths World Wide? You don’t have to write and tell me they are all serving for the wrong motives and they are all indoctrinated. These problems exit but this is not so of all or I would not be here and you would not be sharpening your pencils to refute me.

Jst2laws

29

trying to understand

by DixieDarlin07148 in

jw
friends

i'm 18 and my boyfriend is 16 and an active jw.i'm a baptist and very stong in my belief and love of god.my boyfriend and i haven't been together that long but were very serious and plan on getting married (when the time is right).we both know that we have no intentions of raising our children jw but as baptist and he tells me that he wants to get out of jw but right now its very hard for him because he still lives with his parents and his mother and oldest sister are very active jw.and i understand all that its just that because i love him so much i want to understand about his life and the way he was raised and what he was raised to believe but hes made it very clear that he doesnt want to explain it or talk about it hes told me some stuff but very little.i'm just wondering about their beliefs and what the jw's have to say about us dating and just any information anyone can provide!!!

!thank-you very much!!!!

!

jst2laws

Dark Clouds,

Is it not possible for a person to acknowledge shortcomings of his religious organization, recognition of the deviation of it’s leadership, and hurtful teachings and conduct, and yet in good conscience still recognize they have enough valid Scriptural teachings and good people within to salvage. Is it not possible that this could be thought or expressed without being motivated by a sense of superiority or hypocrisy? I only referred to the shortcomings of other religious organizations to raise the possibility that we tend to hold the WTBTS to a standard that no religious group could stand up against. The WT has some extreme defects that others do not, yet they have some commendable teachings and accomplishments.

I realize I am in dangerous territory because I am expressing these heartfelt thoughts among a majority of people who have been injured by this very institution. Please accept the fact that I am one of those few people who stood up for you, took some heat, lost sleep at night, yet I hang on partly to mitigate damages and otherwise because I hope for a kinder, loving administration in the future. Yes I am one of those dreamers. But please tolerate me. I’m not condemning anyone, nor criticizing or complaining, nor am I defending or justifying wrongs. Lets respect each other, tolerate differing views, and keep an open mind.

Jst2laws

Edited by - jst2laws on 22 March 2001 20:46:10

29

trying to understand

by DixieDarlin07148 in

jw
friends

i'm 18 and my boyfriend is 16 and an active jw.i'm a baptist and very stong in my belief and love of god.my boyfriend and i haven't been together that long but were very serious and plan on getting married (when the time is right).we both know that we have no intentions of raising our children jw but as baptist and he tells me that he wants to get out of jw but right now its very hard for him because he still lives with his parents and his mother and oldest sister are very active jw.and i understand all that its just that because i love him so much i want to understand about his life and the way he was raised and what he was raised to believe but hes made it very clear that he doesnt want to explain it or talk about it hes told me some stuff but very little.i'm just wondering about their beliefs and what the jw's have to say about us dating and just any information anyone can provide!!!

!thank-you very much!!!!

!

jst2laws

To JT, Sixofnine, and Mommy,

We may agree on all points, except that it is worse being a JW than a Catholic or Baptist.

Yes, Mommy we treat people badly if they disagree. That’s why I warned we have ‘one of the most arrogant and controlling leaderships you will ever find’ and we hurt people. I hate it and try to prevent it.

JT, I do not subscribe to JW’s being the one and only, not their ‘information from God’. Your point is valid, “with the passing of time is revealed to be neither from god/ nor based on the bible and entirely the opinion of men".

SisofNine, if the arrogance was not a problem I would not have mentioned it. As to ‘listening to my conscience’ that is what I’m doing. How often do you here a JW admit his org is terribly flawed. I did not tell Dixie to jump on in, that this is the only truth on earth. I gave her a glimpse of the good and bad, then suggested she keep and open mind.

Where we differ is in forgetting that the major religions of the world or responsible for most turmoil, savagery and untimely death do to war and religious bigotry and have done as bad or worse in dealing serious problems such a racism, extreme nationalism, sexism, etc.

While being open about flaws and false claims, cant we with an open mind admit they have found some doctrinal truth and accomplished a few things worth acknowledging?

Jst2laws

29

trying to understand

by DixieDarlin07148 in

jw
friends

i'm 18 and my boyfriend is 16 and an active jw.i'm a baptist and very stong in my belief and love of god.my boyfriend and i haven't been together that long but were very serious and plan on getting married (when the time is right).we both know that we have no intentions of raising our children jw but as baptist and he tells me that he wants to get out of jw but right now its very hard for him because he still lives with his parents and his mother and oldest sister are very active jw.and i understand all that its just that because i love him so much i want to understand about his life and the way he was raised and what he was raised to believe but hes made it very clear that he doesnt want to explain it or talk about it hes told me some stuff but very little.i'm just wondering about their beliefs and what the jw's have to say about us dating and just any information anyone can provide!!!

!thank-you very much!!!!

!

jst2laws

Dixie,
I am a former Baptist, now a JW elder. Dixie, it would be good to understand your friends religion. We stand out as different from the Baptist in that we teach Jehovah is the creator and father, Jesus is his son who came to offer a perpetual sacrifice in exchange for our lives, the holy spirit is simply a the power of God in action, and this loving God does not torture people in eternal torment for disappointing him. The earth will eventually become a paradise as God intended, where man will live without death, illness, pain, or war. Look at Psalms 37:10+29, Isaiah 2:4, Revelation 21:4 for a start.

Now reality! On this site you will find some negative comment about Jehovah's Witnesses and many disserved. While I for one believe we have many basic truths lost by my former affiliation, the Baptist, we have many flaws. You will hear of corrupt leadership, tolerance of child molestation, needless deaths due to refusal of blood transfusions, lost opportunities due to a strange attitude toward higher education, marriage, childbearing and a host of subjects in which I regret to admit we should never have got involved. You may hear so much of this about JW's it is easy to forget that the Catholics, Baptist and all other denominations have similar if not worse histories. We though stand out as having one of the most arrogant and controlling leaderships you will ever find. I regret this yet we still have a body of basic beliefs that is hard to find anywhere.

But you have bigger issues with which to concern yourself. Your probably tired of being told you are too young, but you and especially your boy friend are in the process of change. Like it are not you will become a different person in the next couple of years. What you like or love now will be different in many ways 4 or 6 years from now. You may love your boy friend today, but who and what will he be 6 years from now? Its likely he will not be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact there is probably more likelyhood you will be a JW years from now than your boyfriend, unless you hang around here too much.
Please be patient, and keep an open mind.
Love
jst2laws