i just posted this on h2o and though i'd put a copy here as well.... hi rick,.
i just thought it may be appropriate for me to express my appreciation for your site and what you have accomplished over the last few years and i'm sure will continue to do.. like many others, h2o was one of the sites which helped to open my eyes to the watchtower society and beliefs and practices of jehovahs witnesses and realise that there were things seriously wrong which a lot of other people saw as well - it wasn't just limited to our local congregation.. i did participate on h2o occasionally as caliban but never really kept up-to-date with all the posters, personalities and what was going on between them.. the reason i decided to create an alternative forum, www.jehovahs-witness.com, was because at the time it appeared that the very pro-jw community was well served by witnet and the anti-jw's had h2o but that it may have been a bit too much for the 'mildly curious' jw to visit.
my idea was to have a forum more like witnet which would gradually allow more open discussion than was allowed there without being too off putting to many as a way of introducing the issues to them more gently.. i'm sure your views and standpoints have changed over the years and mine have too.
Simon,
That was very kind of you to address Rick. Somehow rather that sounding like an “apostate” it sounded like the ideal spiritual brother trying to mend.
I’m am very sorry to here what you have recently been going through just because “we doubted, because we asked questions”. Both are the process of thinking, and yet you suffer because you think. Keep up the thinking. Proverbs 2:1-9 praises “thinking ability” (NWT, sorry). It has got to be the right thing to do.
Jst2laws
as most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.
therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.
when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.
Mommy
You said to me a month ago on my first post, “My brother my heart goes out to you. You are in my prayers. I am glad to hear that you will be sticking around, and look forward to your posts”. If you remember I expected a serious attack, yet almost everyone was kind. You stood out, Mommy.
What we have been through that brings us here has been hard, but this cyber world is not perfect either. Some mean things have been said by some ‘newbies’, and I admit it made Me glad I mostly lurk. Maybe caution is a good thing, but silence or withdrawal is not. There are those who, as you say, just ‘say things that hurt’. But we need to lift ourselves above their bad intent and ‘allow ourselves to be wronged’. ( 1 cor 6:7 just the principle) You’re a good person. Don’t let us all be robbed of another good person by those who want to hurt.
And anyone who wants to hurt good people, who does that link you with: Jesus, or the Pharisees who attacked him??? I suggest you try doing what Paul suggested in Eph. 4:15 (I’m sorry if I’m sounding preachy, I’m a lot, lot newer at this than Mommy) “But speaking the truth, let us by love GROW UP in all things into him who is the head, Christ.”
"GROW UP"
Jst2laws,
in the bizarre world that exist within the watchtower society headquarters in brooklyn you can find all kinds of strange statements.
particularly funny is the use of the expressions indisputable/physical facts.
according to the watchtower from 1922, indisputable facts showed that jesus second presence began in 1874!
Norm,
I liked your research. The compared quotes and reasoning were excellent. I am in awe of the depth of some of the posters here.
A side discovery, I often do WT library searches on words or phrases looking for usable quotes. The result is often several identical quotes, even identical paragraphs, separated sometimes by decades. I wonder what would be found if the CD library went back to 1879? Thanks for the research.
Btw, you went through the trouble of preparing lengthy responses to a post of mine in the recent past. I did not respond in turn. It was my first topic and you and a few others simply overwhelmed me. I’m sorry, and hope I'm getting better at this.
Jst2laws
as i`ve looked into the history of the wt society it has become glaringly obvious that one of the main reason for the growth of the.
org.
has been it`s fixation on the end of the world.
JWD
____________________________________________________________________ The fact of the matter is that for the first 50 years the WT made a
huge deal out of the 1874 date. Yet, when they dropped it nobody seemed to say `boo..` No doubt dropping 1914 would have a huge impact on the older JWs, but most of them wouldn`t quit anyway.
______________________________________________________________________
That’s an excellent point. I’d like to add something. If I remember right, they started to hint about 1874 in the mid 1920’s but did not outright change the start of the presence of Christ to 1914 until about 1942. But this major change was accompanied by Freddie’s revelation that Russell was mislead by the King James Translation into a 100 year chronology mistake. This mistake we were told did not affect the 1914 date but affected the 6000 years of mans history. This 6000 years was one of Russell’s means of arriving at 1874. But with this 100 correction we were given 1974/75 to look forward to for the first time. The point is it is easiest to discard a sacred date when it is replaced with something new to look forward to. Now it is not an admission of error but heroic “new light” from Jehovah.
Here is my fear. Russell fooled around with the Jubilee calculations until he could make them fit 1874 to conform to his 6000 year calculations. If we don’t mess with the 49 year vs. 50 year jubilees as Russell did, the society’s math presently arrives 2025 for the beginning of the 70th Jubilee. After all these mistakes could it still be too tempting for the boys to resist dropping 1914 by refocusing on 2025?
Jst2laws
im passionately opposed to the unscriptural practice of disfellowshipping.
i believe that it preys on mankinds worse fears of being left alone, an outcast, a pariah shunned by ones own tribe, a person so reprehensible that even ones very existence is left unacknowledged.
its certainly not the invention of a caring creator, and as for it being a loving act for the dfd one, please dont insult my intelligence.. that being said, i wonder whether or not disfellowshipping can actually be a refuge for the disillusioned witness?
Englishman,
Quote, “I’m passionately opposed to the unscriptural practice of disfellowshipping”.
Two things I fight with my conscience over, accepting too much responsibility then angrily trying to place the blame where it belongs: 1 Neglecting suicidal individuals I might have done more to help. 2 Having part in disfellowshipping weak persons. A few years ago I was part of a committee that disfellowshipped a sister for fornication, yet at the time of the incident she was not even aware that her conduct was an act of fornication.
But the way we treat them afterward, as you point out is unconscionable . The harsh approach is supposedly in imitation of how the Jews in Jesus’ time treated a ‘man of the nations’. Yet religious fanaticism in that time resulted in such hatred and harsh intolerance that they murdered Jesus Christ. Why would a reasoning Christian want to imitate their mindset.
Jst2laws
just curious many say that the org monitors dbs, but anybody have concrete proof of this??
oh by the way at the recent ca dbs were mentioned from the platform!!!
the thought was "some jws were visting jehovahs witness discusssion boards and trying to correspond with some"...might not be exactly what was said(not an actual quote)...they mentioned put a doubt in your mind and start questioning your beliefs!!!
Normie67,
Good to hear from you. Hope you got my recent e-mail.
I think you got enough answers to your question. The key part was "is there proof"? I think AlanF had the most reasonable assesment. The best approach for most of us is to assume the worst whether or not there is proof. I was reminded by Farkel the greatist risk is not what we say here but what we might say locally, to a seeming trusted friend in the congregation, or out.(check VeniceIt's story). It may be too late for me. Keep quiet with your local friends.
jst2laws
i chose the screen name of ripvanwinkle because this fictious characher went to sleep and awoke in a different world.
different setting and must have suffered emotional shock.
coping skills needed to be learned.. i sometimes feel a little like him.
RVW
Your OK! A great and honored antique. But not too old to learn new tricks. Who and what your are right now is what makes you worth more.
_____________________________________________________________________
“What has happened over the past 25 or so years? Does anybody feel that a positive change can come? What do you think?’”
_____________________________________________________________________
Does it matter? Like you I’m waiting to see if a miracle will turn this around. But whether it does or not you, I and everyone here stand before God alone. This organization, Ark, Channel of God mentality is behind me. I’m just concerned about a lot of good people like you who do not feel “valued”.
Jst2laws
i was posting a little on the old h2o but have taking a break before going to this new room only watching for a while.
im still an active jw and elder here in europe - a long way from you in the usa and also another culture even inside the jw.
i think we in europe as jws are thinking a little different from the jws in the u.s. we dont put religious authorities as high as i think you do.
Beroea,
Welcome bro. You and I are walking the same tightrope. I look forward to your thoughts. You describe an atmosphere in Europe I envy. After many years of serving in the congregation the Borg as gone more right while I have gone more left. I have been able to survive with an intact conscience but I can see I am a short distance from exposure. Hope you do better. Keep in touch.
Jst2laws
we hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
Dear thresh1
I appreciate your thoughts. But I am not here to defend the WTBTS, the Baptist or the Catholic Church.
There is fault to be found in all of them. My question was not ‘Is there no bad in the WTBTS’ but ‘Is there no Good in the WTBTS’. I see good and bad in all of them. I doubt God is satisfied with any of them. The only thing the WTBTS has over the Catholic Church is that it may have become as corrupt in record time. They both started out with good intentions and some good men but when ‘men dominate men’ it will soon become a disaster. God must be shaking his head.
Jst2laws
is good a part of god or is god a part of good?
which is the bigger thing which contains the other?
most people would say that god is the container of good and not the other way around.. if this is true, then good comes from god.
Farkel,
Quote “do you get “better” at the game of life by being a self-serving criminal who could not care less about the rights and lives or others, or do you get “better” at the game of life by helping, loving and sharing what you have with others”
I like that thought so much I will dare to respond. I will take your advise and ignore my timidity .
.
Jesus was never accused of being righteous. He was even thought of by the religious leaders as being unrighteous, evil, because he did not live up to their human standard of righteousness.
Yet he was known as a “good” man. So on the issue of ‘evil’ or ‘good’ the son of God was thought to be on the wrong side. Aside from the Hebrew scripture portrayal of God (another subject), wasn’t what Jesus represented to us what we all admire: love, tolerance, forgiveness, GOODNESS.
Paul said in Rom. 5:7 “ For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die.” Obviously goodness is superior to righteousness. Righteousness is about our own personal justification. It is limited to us only and pursuit of it is sometime very selfish. But “Goodness” if far superior because it goes beyond our own needs and looks out for other people. Thus the Jews and Pharisees of Jesus illustration passed by the wounded man but the ‘good’ Samaritan stopped and helped.
We JW’s and X’s tend to be obsessed with righteousness or unrighteousness which is limited and personal. But you focused on the real issues in my mind, “helping, loving and sharing what you have with others”. This is GOODNESS. This is what Jesus was all about. Hope to discuss this more sometime.
Jst2laws
