Venice,
I am so sorry. I would like to talk to your father some day. Does he have an email address? I can relate to your story. I would be a bad parent to teach my children what someone else believes rather that what I believe. I see no alternative but to continue teaching my children the truth and take what comes. I know how vulnerable I am now, as an inadvertent comment from one of my children will open me up to inescapable condemnation. Please put me in touch somehow with your father. Maybe we could be of some encouragement to each other.
jst2laws
jst2laws
JoinedPosts by jst2laws
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23
My story!!!
by VeniceIT inwell i haven't really posted my story here, for one reason it was too painful to write out.
well, i finally did go and write it up.
it's pretty long so i'll just link it.. http://www.geocities.com/veniceexjw/mystory.html.
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jst2laws
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23
My story!!!
by VeniceIT inwell i haven't really posted my story here, for one reason it was too painful to write out.
well, i finally did go and write it up.
it's pretty long so i'll just link it.. http://www.geocities.com/veniceexjw/mystory.html.
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jst2laws
Venice,
ooooops!
see below
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102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Normie,
Thanks for the thoughts. Be careful bro. What you find here everyone needs to know. But water, even "life's water" can come at us so fast it could drown us. If you start feeling weary, email me. Back off for a while if you have to, then come back. I cant believe I could justify applying this, but Jesus said “I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present" John 16:12. I wonder how many people out there got too much and now they aren't here or there. Be careful and keep your mouth shut.
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Elders/former Elders, help with this?
by wasasister inactually, i don't care if you ever were an elder if you can find the appropriate reference in the wt for the following situation:.
with all the discussion lately about the need for "two witnesses" to make an accusation valid, i've been thinking about divorce (and ultimately, remarriage) on the grounds of adultery.
in most cases, an adulterous mate does not commit the deed in public.
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jst2laws
Wasasister,
There is a catch. If the husband is not a baptized brother this is all that is needed. But if the husband (adultrous party) is a baptized brother this will not do, as an investigation will be made and a judicial committee will deal with the accused. Now, if the mate denies that he made the confession, it all fails. This was brought out at KMS school, and a letter I believe. Hope its not that sticky.
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102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Unanswered,
"what is the point where the org. has gone to far? or is there even such a point?"You have come up with a good question. I have not set up boundaries yet for reasons I will explain below. But one thing I and 2 other elders on our body will not tolerate is hurting people. We are not in full agreement as to what is needless harm, but you all would be proud of these brothers. If this situation exists on many bodies of elders around the world than the WTBTS is about to loose its grip. But to explain why I have not defined boundary:
1 Before I realized they had gone as far as they had, they were already backing up. In only three years they have backed up on alternative work for military service, customs that are harmless although having questionable origin, and blood. The steps are far too small, but they are going the right direction. As long as this is the case it is difficult to give up.
2 I have been on the edge so long I always felt in the back of my mind that I would eventually get exposed as the decedent I am inside and thrown out before I would have to make that decision. Yet here I am. The CO wants me out as an elder but cant find a valid charge. This chapter isn’t finished. Maybe I’ll update you later.
There are so many situations that could end this tomorrow. I have my own conscientious decision on blood that I am teaching my family. I covered the DPA part in the service meeting and caused a stir. Even the elders were unaware they had to make decisions this time. My decision would shock most, and get me disfellowshipped. But what would it take for me to say I cannot stay here any longer and cautiously present a different point of view?
I will give some thought to this subject. I think it is worthy.
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102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Mommie,
Thanks for the encouragement. I want to say I feel brotherhood here even though I’m still on the inside. I have a brotherhood on the inside too that I cannot take lightly. Yes, compared to you all we are self-righteous and judgmental, and have some very hurtful policies. But I still focus on the good things that originally brought me out of the Baptist Church to this association. They are still valid. But I wish so much the trend that started in the 70’s at Bethel would have come to full growth. I wonder if what Ray and others were doing back then was like Moses trying to right the wrongs for his people decades before it was time.
I wonder, if like Moses being brought back years later to lead the people, Ray will be around to finish what he started. If not, perhaps we will.
Your thoughts were very encouraging, wendy.
Jst2laws -
102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Farkel,
Similar histories! I’m about your age. Started out a very scared Baptist (fear of hellfire made me obsessive-compulsive but I got over it [knock on wood]) and became a JW at about sixteen. Pioneered and went to Bethel, twice. Personally I have had no problem with not having college, I hire and fire college graduates. But when I sent my wife to school I went through the first of many attempts to remove me as an elder. While this stand on education is one of our more embarrassing leaps into matters that should be left to the individual, at least they have been backing up on that one too. I have been at odds with the march-step mentality for 30+ years and have survived, but I admit I’m getting tired.
Thanks for your very kind comments
Jst2laws -
102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Farkel,
Just last night I ran out of the KH to catch a DF’d person before she got away to try to say something encouraging. I hate this program. I hope you can accept me as you do that elder with whom you had dinner. I will try to get accustomed to your approach but at first it does not appear to exude moderation. You seem to be very well prepared, come back amazingly fast with long and well documented rebuttals and sometimes come across with a Don Rickles type sarcasm. Years ago I would have loved to engage in mental battles with you for fun, but I’m older now and kinder. You are more experienced at this and I suppose intimidating to me. I will try to comment more often on your posts but I do not have what it takes to comment line by line as you do. So please don’t take offense. I’ll do my best.
You’re the first I noted who picked up on my nick. Your comments were taken as a complement.
Jst2laws -
102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Farkel,
I’m sorry, but I admit I have not responded to your posts. I will give you one example why.
In your last post you said “I'm not trying to compare the WTS with Adolf Hitler point-by-point, but I am pointing out that some good deeds done by any organization must be weighed against the bad deeds also done.”
If the WTBTS were to be compared to the Pharisees of Jesus time we could at best call them as he did,
‘blind guides, hypocrites’. They as a group were Jesus’ greatest enemies. Jesus knew many of the Pharisees were not evil people but mislead themselves. Some spoke up for Jesus before and after his death. Paul came out from them only after killing Christians and seeing direct intervention by Jesus. This all happened among God’s chosen people of the time.
I could understand your comparing WTBTS leadership to the Pharisees, an extreme controlling faction among God’s people, and acknowledging this may be another flawed system God will either fix or replace.
But any comparison to Hitler is too much. I was there at Bethel and know many of these guys. The motives are very different. True Hitler may have started out with a good motive too. But these guys inherited a flawed system. Even Ray, who should be more angry than anyone, is not filled with the ‘bitterness’ you condemn me for mentioning.
Harm is harm and someone will pay. Luke 12, from which the original discussion of the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ comes speaks of 2 slaves who are harmful, serving in the same household as the ‘faithful slave’. Should we not accept harmful leadership without looking for a link to Hitler. I can. Yet I’m still on the inside taking a ‘beating’.
Jst2laws -
102
In there no good in the WTBTS??? or ourselves??
by jst2laws inwe hopefully all agree it is wrong to reject an entire race because we have found one of its member to be flawed, or to reject an entire concept an the basis of finding a flaw in its argument.
would not fair people look for a way to accept the good in the concept, modify the flawed portion and rejoice in what was gained from the refined concept?
it would also be wrong, as the wt does, to reject an entire institution because some of its precepts are flawed.
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jst2laws
Mds
I am so impressed. I was not feeling what you expressed till now. And you used scriptural support for your points. I feel a brotherhood. I hope to find more we can agree on in the future.
jst2laws