people, please don't be angry at me, but do you sometimes ask yourselves this question?
i do..
I like this discussion because it really shows up how completely personally responsible we are for our choices. By either chosing witnesses as I have done or a religion under another God or a total lack of belief in God.
If we then realise we have completely made the wrong choice can we really argue?
We have the freewill and freedom to make that choice for ourselves, do you stand by the choice and accept the consequences both right or wrong for yourself?
people, please don't be angry at me, but do you sometimes ask yourselves this question?
i do..
Hi flipper
Armageddon only has to happen once!
Yes I fully accept the choice I have made as a witness in picking them completely as God's people! And I am confident in that choice after a lot of research and Bible study.
And if I then burn in hell in eternal torment with happy perfect people waving down to me from abrahams bosom I will stand corrected.
Onto belief in a God at all? I personally believe in a God because for me it is obvious from our very existance as humans looking at creation around me but some people might want to consider Pascal's wager.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
"a person should wager as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose"
This doesn't really apply to myself because I think there is ample proof of Jehovah but for some it might make an impression that lack of belief in god is only restricting their personal choices.
why has god allowed this system to go on for soo long?
he's god he doesn't need to prove anything to anyone!
why have the billions that have lived on this earth had to suffer for what two people did in eden?.
2 peter 3:9 NWT
9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.
okay so we've obviously established on this board that 607 is not the correct date that babylon destroyed jerusalem.
even before 1914 came around, the bible students still thought 1914 would be a pivital date.
the only way they can gain that info is from the 7 times or w/e.
Hi teel
Yes I do know this is a huge topic made far bigger than it ought to be. But I find extra-biblical sources used as explanations limiting because they are searched for/chosen to support an already established viewpoint. Was anyone there at that time? No. Do we give credit to other man-made sources over the Bible? yes. You end up playing scholar/website ping-pong with each other.
What are we talking about here 20 years difference in dating? This is not a life-changing information for me and it is simply for using against current bible drawn chronological understandings that can be refined if needed.
Thirdwitness often debates this point quite thoroughly in favour of the witnesses.
http://thirdwitness.com/607_BCE/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/
For those that are interested in this topic from a witness standpoint the above link is a good one to get the whole picture. But personally for me prophecy fulfillment is only 100% in hindsight and no christian religions should be judged from such a fluid subjective topic.
my mother was very strict about entertainment.
in school i was doing a project about teen suicide and had checked out some books on suicide and abortion.
i had alot of explaining to do for that.
This has always been a personal choice issue with warnings given but it is upto the parents to decide what is and isn't appropiate for their children to watch.
Would any of you let your 5 year old watch "The exorcist" or extemely sexualised music Videos just as parents?
A lot of what is allowed in the world as a whole is culturally driven of what is currently popular.
Sometimes we are simply caught unawares. Like children programs making wild animals all cute and cuddly when they are anything but. Depending on the country would it be safe for a child to go upto insects and animals thinking they are safe and cuddly? I think as parents we have to make it clear to children what is real and what is just pretend.
Currently there is a lot of concern over violent or addictive computer games that kids use.
"Generally, the research shows that violence in video games increases children's aggressive behavior and decreases their helpful behavior," Carll tells WebMD.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166251,00.html
" Players tend to "cocoon" — that is, to withdraw from casual interactions with others."
Being a witness under Bible morality is extending this natural parenting responsibility and letting God's morality guide you as well.
30 years ago was massively different culturally to now so to try an draw any sort of comparison with todays total flood of entertainment availability is unrealistic.
the following took place several years ago in a congregation in the united states.
we had this circuit overseer who was a real piece of work.
40-ish mts grad, i believe.
Hi darthfader
What is love? Does it allow for false biblical teachings? Does it paper over worshiping false Gods and idols? Or not following the bible teachings? Would it make you keep God's commands to have elders/overseers over the flock despite knowing they will make mistakes?
Hebrews 6:9-11 (New International Version)
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
A parent loves their child and part of that love is rebuking the child for their own protection.
Revelation 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
If a child badly wants more chocolates and begs you for them, would you give them what they want despite knowing that it will make them sick? Why would I support Christian churches that say they love me yet allow me to do things that biblically God condemns and says I will not inherit his kingdom if I keep doing them?
You are very general in your usage of the word love? please be more specific.
Hi finallyfree
You make good points and ones that are why I am a Jehovah's witness. God does use "imperfect" people he had no choice then and he has no choice now! How would the people know Jesus was the messiah? They were in expectation of him but even Jesus God's own son with all the miracles he could do could not convince the Jews that he was the messiah! How could lesser imperfect men show they are God's people without miracles or healings or great signs?
I am a Jehovah's witness because they fit ALL the BIBLE requirements to be God's people.
They don't Just use God's name they recognise Jehovah our Almighty God and father Completely.
Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'Jehovah is our God.' "
They worship Jehovah our father.
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
They recognise Jesus as God's beloved and literal son.
Luke 3:22
.....And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
They preach God's word to ALL.
Matthew 24:14 (New International Version)
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
They use God's word the Bible for teaching and principles.
2 Corinthians 10:3
For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.
Ezekiel 18:4
For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Psalm 37:11 (Amplified Bible)
11 But the meek [in the end] shall inherit the earth and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
Leviticus 26:1
" 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am Jehovah your God.
It is only when people try to say things are not as the Bible teaches that you get contradictions and oxymorons. For me current Christianity outside of the witnesses is trying to make me believe the opposite to what the bible says. Trying to make a son be his own Father or that souls cannot die etc.
I see great biblical truth in the witnesses in both Bible teaching and unity. It is a shame to let the unavoidable imperfection of men spoil this for you.
You are right It is easy to say you are God's people but as Jesus's parable showed... Which son was the one that did his father's will? They one that said "Yes" he would go and work in the field yet didn't or the one that initially said "no" but later repented and did his Father's will?
Mark 3:35
Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
It's easy to say you are a Christian but to match action to words and actually doing God's will?
We can look at witness teachings drawn from the Bible and compare them Christendom's false man-made ones that are full of oxymorons and contradictions to the bible. But it is for each person for themselves to decide. I think Witnesses in bible teachings far outstrip established Christianity that cannot even bring themselves to use God's name in any form.
As a witness I enjoy using Jehovah's name, seeing him as a real person in himself, That I can truly worship him as my Father and only God completely. Enjoying the full expression of the bible not constantly having to ignore most of the hebrew scriptures except for a few proof texts. It's pleasure that I delight in as a witness that I would not give up to try and twist my head around a trinity god that can and cannot die, that can and cannot come to earth, that can and cannot be seen, that can and cannot know everything, that can and cannot be father and son at the same time, that earth means heaven and heaven means earth, that 144,000 is everyone, where and idol isn't an idol when the bible shows it is, where men tell me I cannot use God's name.
but none of this will reach you if you are determined not to be a Jehovah's witness and you have to ask yourself if it is you looking for excuses not to be a witness?
Hi St Ann
I refer you to the above. I find the witnesses have brought back Bible truth to the people after centuries of enforced trinitarinism on pain of death so nope I do not agree with you. If People want to continue following a trinity god or rejecting God altogether that is their choice and right, but I freely chose to believe in Jehovah my father and God through his son Jesus and find the witnesses are my people by virtue of believing as I do from God's own word the bible.
the following took place several years ago in a congregation in the united states.
we had this circuit overseer who was a real piece of work.
40-ish mts grad, i believe.
Hi flipper
So in fact your gripe is with Jehovah not sorting out certain imperfect elders to your satisfaction before armageddon?
Paul himself sets out what can be done if an elder does do something wrong but he makes it clear it has to be substantiated fully before action is taken becasue an elder is involved.
19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
So here Paul is openly showing Elders will make mistakes and gives us instructions on how it is to be dealt with. There is no indication that elders or overseers will be perfect among Gods people and not prone to make mistakes so why are you throwing stones? I do not expect perfection from elders but that they do their job as best they can with my support until perfection comes. An elder goes into his position knowing he is likely to make mistakes because of his imperfection and it could be one he doesn't even see himself. Pauls warns on some of the traps.
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
This is not a man saying himself and others will be free of arrogance etc but acknowledging this is something we have to guard against because it will and can happen to the point he is fearful of it.
okay so we've obviously established on this board that 607 is not the correct date that babylon destroyed jerusalem.
even before 1914 came around, the bible students still thought 1914 would be a pivital date.
the only way they can gain that info is from the 7 times or w/e.
Using bible-based Chronology is a fact from it's usage by the Jews themselves and is explained in the bible. All Jehovah's witnesses know this!
Also 607 is a Bible date those that try and debunk it are arguing that the Bible God's word is wrong. There is no way a true christien would support secular history from one man-written source against inspired Bible history.
the following took place several years ago in a congregation in the united states.
we had this circuit overseer who was a real piece of work.
40-ish mts grad, i believe.
Hi flipper
I was going to answer you until you poisoned the well with the pedophile issue which is a separate much debated topic. If you take that emotional manipulation out of the wording, I was going to say the Bible makes it clear Elders have authority but are under greater personal responsibility and accountability.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account.
people, please don't be angry at me, but do you sometimes ask yourselves this question?
i do..
It might be better to ask:-
So you accept the choice you have made and it's consequences if any?
If Armageddon happened tomorrow and Jehovah's witnesses stood out as an imperfect people doing their level best to be followers of Jehovah their Father and Almighty God through his son Jesus in these times amidst triune God worshipers and happy atheists. And they are prove correct in their biblical adherence. Would you accept you have rejected that promise of your own freewill?
