Posts by debator

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Nope.

Jesus himself clearly indicated by word and deed that worship belonged to his father Jehovah whom he recognised and openly said was the one true God and that his followers would do the same.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

John 4:21
Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Very scripturally clear cut!

61

Do Some JWs Go to Heaven?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

do some jw's go to heaven?

i read both of ray franz's books, and i was left with the impression that in his opinion, being a christian and being a jw were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

some of my christian coworkers have also expressed similar thoughts, when they say that there are "christ's brothers" within many different denominations.

debator

Hi psacra

Seeing Jesus as our lord and saviour is something witnesses do. So in that way we agree. But it isn't Just about Jesus. Jesus didn't come to reveal himself, Jesus is the way to his Father Jehovah.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

If someone says they see and believe in Jesus then surely they would believe what he actually taught about his father Jehovah?

That we are warned that different Jesus's and Gospels would be taught, showing clearly the bible's recognition that we would have to search for the truth among the false at this time. Witnesses have the truth about Jehovah God through his son Jesus and no other flock with their chosen gods and beliefs has this.

Separating oneselves from Jehovah's flock is utterly at odds with all Jesus taught and established!

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

John 21:16
Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

1 Peter 5:2
Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve;

All I have seen on this thread is people avoiding acknowledging this basic bible fact of unity among Jehovah's flock through his son Jesus and this would be a seeable thing or else why ask us to do it? if it was impossible?

It is a cop-out to say belief in God is enough and just avoid digging deeper! anyone can believe in a god but recognition of the one true God Jehovah takes hard work and effort. If it was easy I would be worried! because the bible clearly indicates that is not the case in this time were the love of the greater has cooled off from Jehovah.

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

Peacedog

My name is debator if you want me to contunue replying to you please use it! I have done the curtesy of using your forum name and find it weird that people on here need to lump previous posters (in favour of witnesses) together as if they are all one person. I've seen them do it to someone called alice whom I think they have also accused of being me.

Your opinion of what you think witnesses mean by "God's channel" is only proof of your opinion. We have never claimed to be inspired so I cannot see your bases for this. By using God's word the Bible we are communicating with Jehovah and he with us! especially if he allows us to see such bible truths that anyone can test us by. If we are the only people atm that are doing what the Bible actually says then we are literally the only people communicating with Jehovah. Jews claimed to be God's only people that he communicated with, early Christians also claimed it. There is no wrongdoing in having confidence in your faith?

It's as simple as that. No hidden agenda, no terrible secret. Sometimes I think I've fallen into a Dan Brown novel on this site were people are trying to find the most sinister and complicated intentions in the most innocuous things.

At this time of fractured Christendom, The truth simply cannot be in all of them! there can be only one truth! IMO it is all with the witnessses who have humbly searched for it in God's word not traditional opinions of men that are not found in the bible.

Carvins words on a specific prophecy is just another strawman. Prophecy is a subjective part of the Bible that we are supposed to look outside of the bible for fulfilment of it and so is in a continual state of flux until well-established and even then it may need refinement as understanding become clearer. And since prophecy is only 100% after fulfilment, I am happy to run with whatever their current understanding of that prophetic scripture is. Care to offer an alternative explanation for that prophecy from your religion?

Hi isaac

It is a testable assertion! All Christian religions say their teachings are from the Bible but proof comes from testing them with the Bible. I did personally and found witnesses to have the most accurate bible understanding. You disagree with me and that is your perogative.

1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,

Isaac the Early Christians themselves believed only they could explain and understand the bible. Were they arrogant too? They felt only they had been blessed to have revealed understanding of God's word.

Matthew 13:10-11 (New International Version)

10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

This is not a wrongdoing Isaac.

The eunuch never saw philip again thats all it is saying. Was philip the only christian at that time? We have the established Bible record that congregations where unified by the letters thats wrere swapped and copied between them and they sent out men etc they gathered together for encouragement with overseers and apostles shepherding them. To teach and preach. that an established fact on how the Christian congregation functioned.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Does it come any more plain speaking than that?

How can they hold to teachings yet believe something different? your just creating an oxymoron.

Isaac I use your name, please have the curtesy to use my name debator!

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

Hi Carvin

We use the written word to support the truth we have found in God's word the bible but everything we believe has to be backed up by bible command, scripture or established and applied bible principles.

You are talking like using the written word is wrong? huh!!! Jehovah established it's usage by inspiring the Bible, using printed words as a way to teach us himself and the Bible writers clearly sent letters that didn't make it into the Bible as part of their everyday functions among the congregations.

Colossians 4:16
After this letter has been read to you, see that it is also read in the church of the Laodiceans and that you in turn read the letter from Laodicea.

2 Corinthians 10:11
Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.

There is no biblical precedent to assume we are not allowed to write encouragment to each other. The important things is we recognise the only inspired writing is the Bible. We have never claimed inspiration for the written tools we use that help explain the bible.

Explaining the Bible is what we are supposed to do as God's people.

Acts 8:30-31 (New International Version)

30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

31 "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Why is much of what you bring up against witnesses just different ways of actually stopping them doing things well established in the bible?

Btw Using the word "Cult" is just a strawman used as a defamatory word to prevoke a negative response. Nowadays people can just cold read any structured group you like into it. In early times they used the word "sect" like this and Paul openly recognised but just shrugged the negative connotation off.

Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,

Please recognise the well-used strawmans from this site and the negative response they try to provoke without proof simply just assuming wrongdoing.

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

Hi Peacedog

The word "channel" was simply used to express the opinion that we are the only people at this time following Jehovah on earth and that is literally the truth.

Trinitarians which make up the majority of Christendom atm worship their triune God that is an amalgamation that is not found expressed in the bible.

You would have too prove to me that more than witnesses actually fulfill the following scripture and that saying "channel" is in anyway wrong?

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

As a bare accusation it is simply used as a strawman/loaded question with the assumption wrongdoing in it's wording without having established any wrongdoing.

61

Do Some JWs Go to Heaven?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

do some jw's go to heaven?

i read both of ray franz's books, and i was left with the impression that in his opinion, being a christian and being a jw were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

some of my christian coworkers have also expressed similar thoughts, when they say that there are "christ's brothers" within many different denominations.

debator

Psacramento

I agree wih your first sentence in principle but your next two suggest a lack of freewill on humanity bordering towards calvanism where what we believe is irrelevent and we are prechosen.

How do we show ourselves willing to be redeemed or forgiven? We come the bibles warnings of the "time of the end" when the "love of the greater cools off" and we ask ourselves what makes you a part of the group that doesn't get cut off and Jesus said it plainly...

John 17:1-3 NWT

1 Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.</form>

Hi blacksheep

I hope to be in paradise on earth!

Hi Isaac

When the world was fractured by belief in allsorts of gods and goddesses worshiped in so many differing ways, driven by the wants and desires of the men who created them. Jehovah gave us his bible his word that led to recognition of his son and his revelation of God's purpose and salvation for us. That is the point! the bible to reveals to us to the "truth".

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

2 John 1:4
It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.

There can only be one truth that is the nature of truth.

61

Do Some JWs Go to Heaven?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

do some jw's go to heaven?

i read both of ray franz's books, and i was left with the impression that in his opinion, being a christian and being a jw were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

some of my christian coworkers have also expressed similar thoughts, when they say that there are "christ's brothers" within many different denominations.

debator

Hi deputy Dog

Romans 9:16 is part of Paul's inspired words concerning the inclusion of the gentiles as God's people to partake of his mercy/undedeserved kindness by faith in the one true God Jehovah. It not advocating spining off into all different divisive directions of belief to different Gods and somehow still being acceptable.

97

Beware of the Strawman argument!

by Farkel in

jw
friends

years ago before i took the time and effort to study logic and argumentation, i went to a market and bought some toothpaste.

it was a little-known brand and it touted "baking soda" as its magic ingredient.

it was also cheaper than the name-brand toothpastes and that helped me in my decision.

debator

Hi gary

Can you clarify please the "resurrection of the dead" is a basic bible theme from hebrew scriptures onwards. Jews that never saw Jesus await resurrection on the last day?

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

61

Do Some JWs Go to Heaven?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

do some jw's go to heaven?

i read both of ray franz's books, and i was left with the impression that in his opinion, being a christian and being a jw were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

some of my christian coworkers have also expressed similar thoughts, when they say that there are "christ's brothers" within many different denominations.

debator

Hi Agonas

Are you confering some kind of possible divine knowledge on franz? to know who is written in the book of life? who who will be placed in heaven next to Jesus?

Matthew 20:23
Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

Can I clarify? are you saying what we believe specifically as regards to which God we serve is unimportant next how much we love etc?

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Jesus testifies himself showing what we believe is important especially with regards to doing the "will of his father". Or why do we need to have 4 gospels not just marking him as Jehovah's son but the preaching work he did without let up since his baptism until his death for us. What we teach has to be in the bible that is where we are accountable.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

61

Do Some JWs Go to Heaven?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

do some jw's go to heaven?

i read both of ray franz's books, and i was left with the impression that in his opinion, being a christian and being a jw were not necessarily mutually exclusive.

some of my christian coworkers have also expressed similar thoughts, when they say that there are "christ's brothers" within many different denominations.

debator

Hi agonas

Yes we recognise Jehovah as our father and God and declare ourselves his people but we still render our worship of him with action not just empty words.

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, 'They are my people,' and they will say, 'Jehovah is our God.' "

That is not using him as a talisman but the first step in becoming his people.