Posts by debator

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Hi brotherdan

I'm saying it's not relevent to this issue here where you have to try and prove worship of Jesus or Jesus advocating worship of himself. Which none of which have been shown. Since Jesus makes it clear it his his FATHER who is worshiped and who is the God of the Jews.

The argument for use of Jehovah's name is a red herring to this discussion since it doesn't change Jesus's recognition of his father as the one true God and his father.

I am not an advocate of slicing off two thirds of the bible and dumping them in a dumpster to prove doctrine. YHWH/Jehovah is used in the bible as God's name nearly 7000 times that for me is definitive. Plus the fact Jesus openly quoted without correction scriptures using his father's name. He also refered to his father's name not least of which matt 6:9

Matthew 6:9 (New International Version)

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

Are you saying his father had some other name Jesus was refering too?

Are you really prepared to go down the whole Jehovah/YHWH isn't God's name root just to prove your point?

45

6000 Years doctrine has a flaw... duh

by ex-witness in

let's see... .the sumerians existed 10000 years ago.. archaeologists have found a settlement in china with evidence of tools and agriculture that is over 1.36 million years old.

.

hmmm.. that's a big difference between 6000 and 1.36 million.... .

debator

You are using estimates of timing like they are definates but they are only best guesses unless you can physically go back in time and see for yourself.

You have that much faith in science that it can perfectly estimate backwards through thousands of years?

Despite the fact timings vary an awful lot from scholar to scholar depending on their expert opinion at any given time.

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Hi brotherdan

He refered to his father and made it clear his father was YHWH/Jehovah the God of the Jews

Are you saying Jesus didn't recognise YHWH/Jehovah the God of the Jews as his father?

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

What is your point trying to acheive?

That the jews were a random people who worship a God Jesus didn't know? erm Jesus was a Jew! and they worshiped Jehovah as their one true God and Jesus referenced this very scripture in his words to satan.

Presumably quoting using YHWH/Jehovah the tetragamation

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship Jehovah your God, and serve him only.' "

Are you one of the group that say God changed his mind 2 thirds of the way through the bible and decided not to use his name? even if that was the case. Jesus was still refering to Jehovah who is his father and the God of the jews.

Whether he said Jehovah or not really isn't relevent to the issue since he clearly indicated it is his father who was the God of the jews and it is to him they should render worship.

Actually your case might have been stronger (but unlikely) if he said Jehovah (allowing what current early greek manuscripts which are not the originals say) because trinitarians try to say Jesus is Jehovah but Jesus makes it clear his father is the God of the jews and the one they should worship with spirit and truth.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

213

Brace yourselves: The GOOD things about the WTBS! heh

by theMadJW in

yes-lotta nonsense; a self-proclaimed "slave class" that is not a prophet but like a prophet, giving so awfully embarrasing opinions that are supposed to be automatically acceted by all of us jws...pretenders...mistakes... and moves not "discreet" at all- like the ngo united nations membership they secretly had for awhile....terrible, isn't it?.

i mean, look at the inspiring example we have in churchianity: such wonderful dogma- such as the three sadist-gods who have been torturing billions of men, women, and children for thousands of years- with eternity to go...and god making the universe in 72 hours...and backing the wars of their governments- "god and country!

", as they send their men out to war, telling them they will be blessed for it, and so many more wonderful revelations: the rapture, once-saved, tithing, etc.

debator

Nice topic MadJw

May I just add

That we have shepherds/fds that actually take seriously what job they are supposed to do as Overseers.

Who are recognised by what they were doing when Jesus looked over them (not by a big hand from heaven pointing at them which some people seem to expect). And so got blessed with greater spirit help to be Jehovah people in this time.

Who consistently stand by the unpopular aspects of the bible not letting public opinion bend them.

Where in some places we can actually worship Jehovah God our father in brotherhood with fellow believers in public without fear of burning, hanging, torture, drowning, whipping, impaling, imprisonment etc and all other methods of brutality people have reserved for true worshipers of Jehovah whom they deemed heretics throughout the centuries to this day.

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

debator

Djeggnog - 2

Essan - 0

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Hi donut

The meaning of worship is set by Jesus and the jewish commandments and that is his father Jehovah who is worshiped alone. The choice before me is create a complex piece of unbiblical fiction so I can get past calling Jesus a liar and the commandment lies(and don't quite manage that) or simply accept that the usage of proskuneo is obeisance (one of it's multiple meanings) rather than worship which can only be used on his father Jehovah?

The Bible and Jesus sets the precedent that worship can only be done to his father the one true God Jehovah in spirit and truth.

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Bennyk

nice strawman but not relevent to the discussion Honor is not worship.

You and Dan seem to think proskuneo can be pushed upto worship if Jesus earns it somehow. But there is no bible precedent for this.

1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Like I said Jesus says it is our father who is the one we worship with spirit and truth. I don't see how you can get by that? without saying Jesus is a liar. and he should have tacked on "And myself" at the end of that sentence.

Like I said once it is established that proskuneo can have multiple meanings use of that alone cannot indicate worship.

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Hi Dan

I don't debate the trinity! I only debate things that are in the bible!

You want to debate with me about a pink, red spotted spaniel and how many spots it has I will ablige only if the bible talks about it too.

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

Brotherdan

the context is Jesus's own words to satan.

Matthew 4:10

10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship Jehovah your God, and serve him only.'"

Jesus says the One true God is his father and here he indicates worship is only given to his God Jehovah.

Revelation has to be obeisance simply because it isn't in reference to God. It becomes circular when you try and prove Jesus is God by this. Once it was established that proskuneo could have multiple meanings and only means worship in reference to God himself you argument loses all steam.

in the end all you are saying is Jesus is lying and you can worship someone other than God his father. Trinity particularily suffers because logically if the one true God whom we worship with spirit and truth is the father, you have to say Jesus is the father not just God.

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

debator

BrotherDan I was avoiding other uses of the word Proskuneo when its usage indicates not worship but obesience another context driven meaning.

The scriptures I deliberate chose use proskuneo as worship of God in a clearcut, concise way contextually. You are just introducing the word proskuneo by itself implying it can simply means worship everytime which patently isn't the case. And is circular reasoning.