Posts by debator

310

Are they really that bad???

by anonymous4 in

had a good look into the doctrine, beliefs and practices of jws and to be honest, i don't really see anything wrong with it at all.. it's biblical and i've had such an eye opener the past year or so reading some of their books and magazines .

is there really any real reasons why i shouldn't want to get involved further?

:-).

debator

Hi Outlaw

We are not just meant to quote the Bible like a mantra. We are supposed to use it like a tool. The wt's refer us to the bible and show us the bible explanations for what we believe. They refer everything to scripture and demonstrably so. The bible itself mentions various writings in both the hebrew and greek scripture that while not inspired clearly showed the allowance for written work outside of God's word directing us too God's word.

So they are Bible studies there is not one where we do not goto the Bible for reference and guidance.

155

A FOUR LETTER WORD FOR DEBATOR

by wasblind in

debator said: " coc is not the holy grail.

it is just an imperfection of men fallacy argument!

i'm surprised it still works on people.

debator

Hi Td

CoC is all about showing Ray's personal opinion on the fallibility of human interactions in parts of our organisation we never really had much contact with as a whole. What were people expecting? infallibility? We have never claimed perfection or infallibility. So why be stumbled by a book that shows our innate human fallibility in all parts of our organisation?

I plead nothing that we haven't always said!

We lost some mystery and gained some reality but nothing surprising unless people were putting false expectation of perfection onto our shepherds.

155

A FOUR LETTER WORD FOR DEBATOR

by wasblind in

debator said: " coc is not the holy grail.

it is just an imperfection of men fallacy argument!

i'm surprised it still works on people.

debator

Hi wasblind

Imperfection means we can and do make mistakes and The bible gives us ample proof of that. We are given the bible to help correct and avoid those mistakes but it doesn't stop them happening.

God's people are not marked by their lack of mistakes but their reliance on Jehovah and his word to be refined and be corrected from them.

You use one example which is prophecy interpretation (an easy target) since it involves recognising signs in the world around us for Biblical prophetic fulfilment.

If you example was more honest I would give you more credit. When has any biblical prophecy been 100% except in hindsight?

It is a biblical fact that we do get surprised by how God's prophecies work out despite being told about them. The best we can do is be prepared "keep on watch" Which is what we are doing as Jehovah's witnesses.

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

debator

Hi moshe

I said "established evidence" that isn't majority opinion but archaeological data and historical reference material. How do we know any historical figure existed? We have written, stored, carved data etc on them from various sources. There is ample proof of this to support Jesus's literal existence as a person, in fact a lot more than a good number of popular historical figures have but we still doubt he exists? why?

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

debator

Hi Nickolas

Word games again? "Proto-human-like" that is just a way of saying "okay they weren't brutish ape-like but we can still say they weren't as complex as us" but that one is losing weight too because they are finding these so-called proto-humans to be increasingly complex as us. And still a glaring lack of the brutish ape-like ancestor they apparently came from.

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

debator

Hi Retrovirus

your words seem to be accepting of the ridiculous claim on this forum that they are a cult when demonstrably they are not.

Evolution is tricky... firstly because it removes itself from Abiogenesis. Next because in many ways it is just renaming God's incredibly designed processes and uses them as proof while it areas of greatest flaws are ignored like... Abiogenesis, species jumping, the odds involved of chance happenings from the cellular to complex mechanisms. the unpalatability of "chaos", The current population of the world fitting the Bible time frame mathematically and not evolution time frame which would make us vastly unpopulated given the millions of years involved against propagation of the species. civilisation not savagery as origin (early ancestors where observably complex civilisations not ape-like brutes from the evolution theory), laws on recessive genes mean they still show up in next generations and "ape-like to man" is in direct denial of this fundamental law we should still have regressive ape-like creatures showing up in the population. The extreme Immobility of certain species plants and animals making it impossible for them to be world-wide yet they are, while others are only found in one place and no other. Time is used as the excuse to cover the guesswork.

Evolutionists cling to what they do know while ignoring the glaring problems. It is a classic popular majority-opinion relying on it's popularity to give it credibility as "proof".

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

debator

Hi Nickolas

Word trickery is not going to work with me! "Evolution doesn't change it evolves" I lolled at that one! So men coming from Apes changing oops evolving to men coming from ape-like ancesters is just evolving not changing opinion? and the fact that many different evolutionists hold totally differing opinions is just evolving?.

From sludge to man in a billion years with hundreds of variable opinions on it! The major assumption being that there can be no other model for our existence. So they refine and rework the theory within the assumed evolutionary framework so there remains very little similarity between what Darwin believed against what is believed now. Darwin gave you the title and evolutionists just change oops evolve the content under it.

Like most theories I expect it will disprove itself.

There can be only one basic truth that is a reality of our existence. But we can and do have differing opinions on it. The differing opinions do not allow for different truths only for the other opinions to be disproved when the real one is revealed.

You talk of cognitive dissonance when you own defence of the ever-changing evolution theory smacks of it?

Yes it is human nature to defend our personal beliefs clinging to ever-greater outrageous claims against the battering of reality but my belief in God is set against the reality of the immeasurably harmonious complexity of intelligent design around me and my belief that Jehovah's witnesses are Jehovah's people in this time against the reality of what the bible actually teaches as opposed to the unbiblical-ness of other so-called Christian religions.

You try to divide Jehovah witnesses and the watchtower and tract society when we are the same thing, it would be more honest to say you are dividing the sheep from the shepherds. Anti-authority wrapped up in word trickery.

If you had no hate towards Jehovah's witnesses why are you trying to stop your family being Jehovah's witnesses? If your desire is to stop them being Jehovah's witnesses how can you say you don't hate Jehovah's witnesses? It like saying "I don't hate doctors" but refusing to let them practise as doctors or actually be doctors. If there then are no doctors you have succeeded in wiping them out even if the humans that used to be them still exist.

Majority belief has consistently throughout the centuries proven to be no measure of truthfulness.

The highlighted words are just unproven, biased, very spacious opinion and unspecific assumptions from that person. What paradoxes? What universal laws is he referring too? what universal truth is he referring too? how is the bible hodge podge?

44

Well, I just finished reading Crisis of Conscience thanks to IssacAustin!

by Botzwana in

jw
friends

i couldn't put it down!

very informative.

i agreed with it all.

debator

CoC is not the holy Grail. It is just an imperfection of men fallacy argument! I'm surprised it still works on people. Only those who expect perfection from imperfection IMO would be rocked by it.

We are human and we are imperfect and despite being God's people still have to face daily life and administration as his people with these two realities around us.

Those that are stumbled by imperfection of men couldn't have read the Bible correctly.

100

These are good people

by Retrovirus in

in my introductory post i told about the jws that have been visiting me at my sil's request.

at first i spoke with them for her sake, then found i liked them anyway.

what i didn't like was the literature, especially the stuff trying to disprove evolution.

debator

Hi moshe

Majority belief does not equate to truth! Yours is a very weak argument! If 99 out of 100 people decided black was white and one said it was still black would it make the majority right by simply being in the majority?

I am surprised you even put that on the table.

You are right that their are many religions and beliefs. Do I have to go into the minutia of each one to recognise their invalidity?

The bible in whole or in part is used by 3 of the major religions in society today. It has verifiable history of which less and less is debated. Jesus maybe doubted as God's son by people but most historians recognise that the established evidence supports he was a real live person that existed.

We are given the Bible God's word to find the truth. How much we use it and allow it to guide our understandings is the measure against all Christian religions.

Since 99% of Christian religions believe in a trinity God that isn't even mentioned in the bible. This makes them fall at the first fence if they cannot even get God right what are the odds against the rest of what they teach?

Whether you accept it or not Jehovah's witnesses stand out as a uniquely Christian religion (in the pattern of early Christians) at this time, that Trinitarians tried to stamp out of existence by fair means or foul. But they fail because we regrow simply by insightful study of God's word they haven't been able destroy despite all efforts to stop people reading God's word.

The paradoxes are not in the Bible but in faulty human perception from their own opinion of what should be in the Bible.

Name me one other book of Ancient writings that is established in humanity as the Bible is? Touching history, archaeology, huge events, accuracy of historical daily life from century to century, kings, Rulers and countries, insightful teachings and accurate prophecy among many more points that establish it beyond just the majority believing it.

You talk about the majority argument but reject a book that has touched the life's of billions of people world-wide and just dismiss it as a fairy tale? Your argument if actually followed by you would prove the Bible as accurate truth simply by it's establishment world-wide.

Instead your arguments smacks more of someone desperately searching for ways to disprove Jehovah's witnesses and the bible rather than reasoned judgement.

310

Are they really that bad???

by anonymous4 in

had a good look into the doctrine, beliefs and practices of jws and to be honest, i don't really see anything wrong with it at all.. it's biblical and i've had such an eye opener the past year or so reading some of their books and magazines .

is there really any real reasons why i shouldn't want to get involved further?

:-).

debator

Hi designs

Trying to blast me with the fact Men have studied the Bible throughout the centuries as some kind of realistic argument is just plain silly. (yet again another imperfection of men fallacy argument)

You have not addressed my point at all! Simply that it is Jesus himself by quoting Zechariah 13 in that chapter that establishes it definitely as a future prophecy regarding Jehovah's people which from then on are followers of Christ the promised Messiah aka Christians.

Or are you saying the Greek scriptures are not part of the bible and that Jesus and his establishment of his followers from the Jews aka Christians (encompassing us gentiles) is a load of rubbish?

Hi Outlaw

Is mockery the only currency you use? It is a barrier that I feel disinclined to try and reach through when you seem unable to address any point without resorting to it?