Posts by debator

32

Is the WTBTS mistaken or deceptive?

by exwhyzee in

when i look back at history, i see the great lengths people have gone to, to prove their devotion to god and to carry out what they though to be his will.. do you think the watchtower organization is truly trying to deceive people and cover things up or do you think they are honestly misguided or mistaken in some of their beliefs and policies ?

if so, what purpose would they have for doing this?.

debator

loaded question! Niether.

144

The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan in

my mom is addicted to the wts.

i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.

he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.

debator

Hi coffee black and Billy

I am not arguing English words here but the Bible. There are no English words in the Bible! but it makes one thing clear whichever language we use there is an ability where God speaks directly to certain people call it inspired/God-breathed whatever you will. The Bible was created by the use of this specific ability. Duet 18 describes this ability as something certain prophets God speaks to directly and The messiah will have specifically. Hebrews confirms this.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (New International Version)

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

You cannot change this Biblical fact! And witnesses do not claim it as an ability. And it is claiming this specific ability falsely that gets you condemned as a false prophet.

This is the truth of the last 8 pages and you try to blur it to the point where you seem to be even denying the Bible being inspired specifically by this gift because you deny it as a specific ability given to only a certain few?

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

debator

Hi peacedog and others again

You keep creating an oxymoron. God did not create things alone he did it with the help of his son this is a Bible given from hebrews. You think this somehow proves Jesus is Almighty God but it doesn't because the words use are the singular as in "one person" "me" "myself" Clearly separating "God" from his son but then trinity says God is three persons and You'll quote the use of "us" in genesis to prove it.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (New International Version)

1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

He speaks through prophets but they do not become God? He works and speaks through his son but you then try and create some special case for Jesus to make him Almighty God Jehovah.

You are not saying God created things himself alone You are saying a three person God created things together and that is defeating your own argument. Your reading your doctrine into this. Your saying Well yes three people did do creation therefore they are one and this simply doesn't follow. While we say Yes there are two people involved in creation God and his son (his master worker proverbs 8) so Jehovah works through his son but Jehovah is the only source and does scripture back this?

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom ALL things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and THROUGH whom we live.

You say God cannot claim to work alone if he uses others unless they become God which is weird since you ignore this for everyone and apply it only to Jesus (For others you try and explain it away or ignore it like with moses, prophets and Angels) We have our understanding shown and revealed to us in Bible scripture. yours is simply read into it.

28

Eight Marks of a Mind Control Cult

by Bangalore in

eight marks of a mind control cult.. part 1. part 2. part 3. part 4. part 5. part 6. part 7. bangalore.

.

debator

All cult lists are subjective and rely on the person cold reading their own group into the list. Truly objective people can see the lists are so general as to be applied to any group either religious or non-religious that a person commits themselves too. Take the first century christians a couple of scriptures would easily fit them on that list.

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

John 12:25
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

1 John 2:15
[ Do Not Love the World ] Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 John 4:6

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit [a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Any life we choose comes with rules even if they are simply the law of the Governments, like if you steal and end up in prison for it. Cult is overused and misused word to try and manipulate an emotional appeal out of people. While some genuine Cults exist, these lists are deliberately generalised to cover very general points so that any group can be read into them.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

debator

Hi peacedog

Sorry for the delayed reply.

The bible explains itself, that is why we use it.

Hebrews 1:1-2 makes it clear.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (New International Version)

1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So we already have two people involved God and his son. God created THROUGH his son! trinitarians cannot argue against this Biblical fact! their way of dealing with "By myself" but clearly involving God's son. is first to read "God" as the word "father" instead of God, then to invent a situation where they can have two people involved but try and say they are in fact one person who can say "me" "I" "myself" etc.

Indeed this shows that trinitarians are making the same argument as witnesses, that the Father works through the son but to try and negotiate their proof text scripture they try and make Jehovah the same singular person as his son able to refer to himself in the singular. they then ignore this when refering to the "us" in genesis as a proof text. This is where their oxymorons kick in.

God clearly can work through workers aka Angels, people, animals and his son and so can be said to have done it all.

It's like people saying Brunel made "the great western railway" when he clearly would have used workers/hired hands. But Brunel did it on his own, he did not cooperate with Stephenson or any other great engineer of his time, it was all his own work. But obviously he didn't lift a finger.

More importantly other examples of this not involving Jesus exist.

Ezekiel 14:7 (New International Version)

7 " 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I Jehovah will answer him MYSELF.

So how did Jehovah punish them?

He explains in verses 14-17

Ezekiel 14:14-17 (New International Version)

14 even if these three men—Noah, Daniel [a] and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.

15 "Or if I send wild beasts through that country and they leave it childless and it becomes desolate so that no one can pass through it because of the beasts, 16 as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, even if these three men were in it, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.

17 "Or if I bring a sword against that country and say, 'Let the sword pass throughout the land,' and I kill its men and their animals,

God is working through agencies here "wild beasts" and "sword" but attributing it solely to "Myself".

Here in psalms we have Jehovah saying.

Psalm 72:18 (New International Version)

18 Praise be to the LORD God, the God of Israel,
who alone does marvelous deeds.

so every marvelous deed is Jehovah's but to name but a few...Moses, prophets, apostles etc who are used with regards to these.

Exodus 7:1-3

1 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made youGod to Phar´aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet. 2 You—you will speak all that I shall command you; and Aaron your brother will do the speaking to Phar´aoh, and he must send the sons of Israel away from his land. 3 As for me, I shall let Phar´aoh’s heart become obstinate, and I shall certainly multiply my signs and my miracles in the land of Egypt.

He worked through moses to do the miraculous signs to to Pharoah and indeed made Moses "God" to pharoah but does that mean Moses is Jehovah? No but you will say this similar usage of Jesus makes Jesus almighty God. You created rules that you only apply to Jesus and ignore for all others used in similar ways by Jehovah.

Heres another.

Isaiah 43:11

11 I, even I, am Jehovah,
and apart from me there is no savior.

So only Jehovah is our savior a popular one with trinitarians but yet they ignore scriptures like this one.

Judges 3: 15 And the sons of Israel began to call to Jehovah for aid. So Jehovah raised up for them a savior, E´hud the son of Ge´ra, a Ben´ja·mite, a left-handed man. In time the sons of Israel sent tribute by his hand to Eg´lon the king of Mo´ab.

Jehovah can raise up saviors but this doesn't mean they are Jehovah just that Jehovah works through them.

The bible clearly establishes that Things can be atrributed to God while he works through others.

63

WT Article that talks about babies being killed at armageddon....

by Tuesday in

hey folks, does anyone know which wt article talks about how babies will be killed as in the ones that were killed at sodom and gomorrah and the flood?.

i'm drawing a blank completely what article it was in.. thanks in advance everyone!.

debator

What about the 4 million+ a year abortions we do as a people? babies that do not even get a chance at life? Or the 1000's of children in africa dying of Aids before they become adults? not even getting life-prolonging drugs that developed countries get for their Aids victims. And as said above by Cog, we have no problem with children being the victims of warfare. Like iraq etc and if we have a war in Iran do you think children will die? when 2 nuclear bombs were dropped in Japan they did it knowing women and children, old and infirm would all be slaughtered too.

Isn't this a case of throwing stones from glass towers at the bible and witnesses?

Jesus makes it clear Armageddon happens at a time when it a last resort to save mankind.

Matthew 24:22
If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive,

The bible makes it clear Parents are responsible for their children until the child is old enough to decide for themselves.

Ephesians 6:4
Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

debator

Kenneson

Who was Jesus's true Father? God or Joseph and if it is God, was Joseph a false Father to Jesus? then were the genealogies of Joseph a lie because he is Jesus's false father according to you?

We have "True north" does that make all the other norths false?

Bible often uses words in the superlative sense you are ignoring this.

hense why Jehovah is refered to as the "God of gods" and in fact Paul explains this plainly.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)

5 For even if (A) there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6 yet for us (B) there is but one God, (C) the Father, (D) from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and (E) one Lord, Jesus Christ, (F) by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

The clincher is at the end Paul makes it clear "FOR US (CHRISTIANS) there is but one God, the father." all the others while gods or lords or so-called ones they are not our "one true God and father Jehovah.

It is funny to see trinitarians jump through hoops to deny the obvious and bible written. Replacing it with the obscure and read-into scripture. Often as in this case resorting to saying the scripture is not saying saying what it obviously is.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

debator

John 17:1-3 (New International Version)

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father,......that they may know you, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. Trinity is just trying to make people believe in Oxymorons. 3 never equals 1! I agree with Bane, trinity is too easily disproved and not worth debating.

144

The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan in

my mom is addicted to the wts.

i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.

he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.

debator

Hi Donny

We are expected to have shepherds/overseers guiding us that is a Bible fact.

Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, " 'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, " 'May another take his place of leadership.'

Since Abraham, Noah onwards there has always been those in leadership roles and Jesus didn't change this for Christians. By setting up the apostles,anointed and then God inspiring the instructions to appoint overseers and elders and giving the leadership gift among us

Romans 12:6-8 (New International Version)

6 We have different gifts, ....... 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently;

Makes a body of shepherds/elders governing for the whole flock biblical but they are accountable for their leadership and how in line with the Bible they are. Hense why we "Test the spirit". Going it alone is simply not the biblical way.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Next you talk about using Jehovah trying to make the case that First century Christians didn't use God's name. This begs the question, are the hebrew scriptures using God's name nearly 7000 times actuall also the Bible? Did God change his mind about using his name? If so why did Jesus uphold it and quote scripture using it?

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship Jehovah your God, and serve him only.' "

It's always a strange road for person to try and argue the case that first century Christians didn't use God's name because it pretty much is either saying, Jehovah made a mistake giving the jews his name or that Christians weren't good enough to use God's name unlike the jews. Since the greek scriptures happily quote hebrew scriptures refering to Jehovah. I would agree with the witnesses that there is some man-made reason Jehovah's name got obscured and this is backed up by the history of Jews removing his name and replacing it with the title "Lord". There is grounds to think something similar happened at the same time with the greek scriptures rather than jump to the conclusion that Jehovah changed his mind without telling us.

Psalm 148:13
Let them praise the name of Jehovah, for his name alone is exalted; his splendor is above the earth and the heavens.

Matthew 6:9

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

Our shepherds are nothing like the Pope with his country, palaces, jewels and "Papal infallibility" (which is a claim for inspiration) Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error [ 1 ] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

That you make that comparison I think shows how unable you are to step back and see the difference between claiming authority as shepherds and claiming to be able to be divinely inspired. These are both different.

Hi Coffee black

All jews accept (and this included Jesus) that deut 18 is a set instruction on how to recognise those that are divinely inspired (including the coming messiah) the word comes from Timothy that confirms this. You can say "God-breathed" as well, your just trying to make a play on English Words (by the way NO English words are in the bible). Being inspired is a Bible description of those that got words directly from God and hense how we Got the Bible "god's words" written. If you are now saying there is no such thing as being inspired You are disconstructing the Bible. Which brings me to my next point to billy.

Hi billy

You are being dishonest by using modern dictionaries to try and blur our Bible understanding of inspiration/God-breathed. The Bible explains itself and it makes a clear difference between being spirit-guided as all God's people are with the various spirits gifts which come in all shapes and sizes as apposed to the specific gift of being inspired of God among a few specific others that ended with the apostles.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version)

20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

You then make a totally constructed personal argument against the use of the word "channel". There is no biblical condemnnation against this basically having confidence you are God's people and doing his will and that the flock should be guided by you if you are a shepherds quite the contrary. They only recognise their God-commanded leadership position which is allowed biblically and actually a command but this is not also a claim for inspiration (which they they clearly deny).

It's like you are saying the first Manager was given the shop keys and a mobile phone to use directly to call his boss and wrote a manual but the next manager was only given the shop keys and written manual but no phone. The second manager doesn't get the phone and isn't saying he has the phone. By saying he has the "keys" aka authority and a manual written by the one with the phone doesn't mean he has claimed to have the phone either or less authority.

You are trying to stick two different things together.

Billy You are simply disconstructing our ability to be recognisably God's people following all the bible instructions including having shepherds among us with authority to lead. I see no benefit to this since it's fruitage is just to break-up the flocks unity.

Hi Cold steel

You cannot jump from the hewbrew scriptures to the greek scriptures to support your points against the hebrew scriptures. Jesus established ALL OF THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES by virtue of not discounting any. Only Daniel was really questioned as authentic hebrew scripture/old testaments and Jesus quoted from it so fully establishing it (And Revelation is a Daniel equivalent for the greek scriptures. Both written later and full of prophetic utterances and metaphors).

If you want to argue the canoncity of the greek scriptures written after Jesus then this is a different topic. Some indeed proved unpopular by various early 2nd/3rdcentury writers because they conflicted with various trinity doctrines. but it's fairly clear that by the third century all the books we currently use were known to be inspired even if some people like to pretend the official stamp wasn't on them. But I find this argument pointless since picking and choosing which bible books we follow is just proof texting to our own opinion.

The Bible establishes that "Jehovah/YHWH" is the Father first by Jesus (as was already shown) and second by itself.

Isaiah 63:16 (New International Version)

16 But you are our Father,
though Abraham does not know us
or Israel acknowledge us;
you, O JEHOVAH, are our Father,
our Redeemer from of old is your name.

You are reading your own doctrine into texts, you are mistaking a person working on Jehovah's behalf for Jehovah our Father himself.

John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.

144

The False Prophet Nathan?

by brotherdan in

my mom is addicted to the wts.

i've recently brought up the many false prophecies and she calls almost every week to show me new things that the society has said about false prophets and how they are not one.. the latest was the account where king david wanted to build god a temple.

he told nathan the prophet about his idea and nathan basically said, well god is with you, you should do it.

debator

Hi cold steel

I disgree Jesus himself did not deny any of the then established hebrew canon as false books which he would if one was. He accepted all of the jewish canon of inspired books. "Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon" were always included in the "poetry collection". By quoting one book from the collection, it verifies the entire collection. Which Jesus did quote.

Since Jesus fulfilled the sabbath the need for it passed.

Jesus is not Jehovah! Jesus himself tells who is God quite clearly.

John 17:1-3

1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, ..... that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

and here Jesus is talking to Jews what does he say?

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

Jews only had one God this was Jehovah

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God, is one Jehovah. [ a ]

and who did Jesus recognise as the Jews God?

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

Jehovah is our father by Jesus's own words. Otherwise he would have said "I am your God Jehovah" he never did .

Since you have no problem using every other single English name in the bible like Jesus, david etc then your quibbling over Jehovah is foolishness the bible is written in multiple languages showing Jehovah understands how names get transliterated from one language to another. I always find it ironic that someone will happily uses J-esus and in the same breath refuse to use J-ehovah both are the English versions of their original ancient hebrew names.