Posts by debator

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

debator

Hi curtains

They are hearing about one group then after that they are looking at a different group.

Revelation shoots you down with a later description of the 144,000

Revelation 14:4 (New International Version)

4... They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

They come first as the firstfruits before the 7 bowls of wrath but what about the great crowd?

Revelation 7:15 (New International Version)

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation;

These weren't sealed before as the 144,000 were but they came out of the tribulation itself.

135

No one is going to Heaven (and my introduction to the forum)

by sobrino1 in

i'm new to the forum, though i had been a lurker for quite some time now.

i studied w/ the witnesses for a number of years, to be specific, for 10 years (since i was a child) but never actually became one; though, i was counted as one in the yearbooks as a "publisher.

" so, as far as i got was as an unbaptized publisher.

The basis for thinking Israel is about a Jewish origined Christian group established by Jehovah through his son rather than going back to rejected jews themselves, is already established in the Bible. That talks about grafted-on boughs and already has gentiles becoming Christians through Peter.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

What we have is a Bible that explains itself when we need explanation but men try to put their doctrine onto the Bible constructing it from out-of-context Bible scriptures.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi 3dogs

Roman 14 talks about food itself which is from God and how it not unclean by this alone. It is not a licence to white-wash pagan celebrations. Romans 14 is often misused as a loophole to whitewash what is unacceptable to Jehovah. I was just amazed he even tried to use it.

I am a Jehovah's witness I can look back in history and see the early Christians also knew applied biblical principle meant they didn't celebrate birthdays it would be unthinkable of them to start doing pagan celebrations. When Paul preached to other nations and beliefs the people from them that followed him dropped these practices they didn't white-wash them and stick Jehovah or Jesus on them.

The Bible is a book of instructions to live and learn by, not to just find loopholes in to do what we want. And I respect it's authority as do all Witnesses.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (New International Version)

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi Caliber

Pinata is a personal choice because it has lost most of it's pagan significance in it's everyday usage like with week day names etc. Birthdays and Xmas are STILL pagan celebrations they also keep all the traditions and revelries of the old and add to them. We have a cute fictional red-clothed bearded santa to lie to our kids about now. These pagan feastdays are marked by Ritual and reverence for what this world considers important.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi Lisa rose

If someone said

"I did a celebration to Baal today, My mum and dad got together with us, we made sure all the kids enjoyed it and had presents. Little johnny got to be the "sacrifice" and he liked having the pretend flames painted on him. while we all chanted to Baal"

The point is however cute and cuddly we make a celebration, however much we try and whitewash it or tag it. It still remains a pagan celebration we should avoid as per Bible principle. That is why early Christian didn't do birthdays or Saturnalia.

hi caliber

That is specifically about Jewish celebrations not Pagan ones. Recognition that it would take time for Christian jews to adjust especially with the sabbath.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi designs

You have made a god after your own wishes and thoughts but it is not Jehovah and that is your choice. The bible is a hard real book to read, it doesn't hold it's punches concerning our condition. It gives us it straight between the eyes and it takes a brave man to face the reality of the world we live in and where sin is leading us. But a braver man to then see our possibility under Jehovah's rule and be prepared to reject the instant gratification of this world for a hope not seen yet, having faith in Jehovah.

If this world worked Birthdays and Christimas wouldn't be just the milieu of richer countries and poorer ones pressing their faces against the windows of our wealth and celebration of it, in their need and want.

Hi Ding

We simply like the first century Christians reject them as we/they do many other pagan celebrations from other religions as not part of our Christian life under Jehovah whom we honour above all. We are not making a fuss but simply applying a Bible principle.

Hi Mrs jones

The difference is between applying Bible principle as Christians or just following a set of rules like the jews.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi Caliber

The difference was first drawing a line with Bible scripture and then applying bible principles. It takes time to recognise and apply these.

I think we did it fairly quickly considering 1700 years of Catholic stranglehold on doctrine, Bible usage and on pain of death too until recent centuries.

That we can go back to early Christian example basically applying bible principles that serve us well in a modern world (that is so given over to pleasure seeking) is quite unique of Witnesses IMO. We do not try to have our Christmas or birthday cake and eat them, we simply reject them as the Early Christians did who also knew that there is no mixing of God's way with the pagan celebrations around them without damage to your spirituality.

1 Corinthians 10:20-21 (New International Version)

20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi thetrueone

If they are so unimportant why this debate? why must we celebrate them? Why must people have done them in secret? why rush at them like a person dying of thirst to do them once you are no longer a Jehovah's witness? Why do we make so much of them? It is estimated Billions of money changes hands over these unimportant feastdays world-wide.

How did the Queen show recognition of the world-wide recession? She cancel her staff members palace Christmas party and it made the news.

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi designs

Yes we are free to choose but our choice is important it shows where our heart is.

When apostles preached God's word in other cultures did they then make-over their idols, practises and celebrations and stuck Jehovah or his son on them?

Acts 19:19 (New International Version)

19 A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.

Acts 19:26-27 (New International Version)

26 And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all. 27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."

Tradesmen that made a lot of money out of pagan practises had reason to try and stop Paul because they were losing their trade over Pauls preaching God's word and way.

How much would tradesmen lose if the world decided not to celebrate Christmas or Birthdays?

202

"Birthdays rob the glory of God"

by sabastious in

humans are unique.

each one is unique in his/her own regard.

like your thumbprint, your life is unlike any life in existence.. .

debator

Hi Outlaw

So you are saying unless we celebrate these sacred pagan feastdays we cannot enjoy the holidays!

I rest my case!