Posts by djeggnog

43

I will write down questions and start asking JW's for answers.

by XPeterX in

should i try it?questions about dates,gb policy,history of the org.

etc.i think i will confuse them and surprise them a lot (especially the elders)..

djeggnog

@Titus:

Use the following URL to go to the following website --

http://pastebin.com

-- and when you get there, type or paste into the "Post a New Pattern" edit box your questions. Then change "Post expiration" from "Never" to "1 Day" ("Post exposure" will be set to "Public" by default, so leave this as is) and enter "NobodyT" in the "Name/Title" edit box (no need exists to enter an email address for security purposes since your post is set to "Public," and there are no passwords on this website). This is now my 11th message, so I'm not sure that this message will go through. At any rate, I'll look for your post to appear by clicking the "Archive" button and searching for "NobodyT" within the next 24 hours (which is why I asked you to change "Post expiration" to "1 Day"), after which your post will be automatically deleted by the Pastebin.com automation. I intend to answer all of your questions at once. I do not need the actual URL that will be assigned to your Pastebin.com post since I should be able to find it easily using the "Archive" button.

43

I will write down questions and start asking JW's for answers.

by XPeterX in

should i try it?questions about dates,gb policy,history of the org.

etc.i think i will confuse them and surprise them a lot (especially the elders)..

djeggnog

@XPeterX:

Use the following URL to go to the following website --

http://pastebin.com

-- and when you get there, type or paste into the "Post a New Pattern" edit box your 53 questions. Then change "Post expiration" from "Never" to "1 Day" ("Post exposure" will be set to "Public" by default, so leave this as is) and enter "53questions" in the "Name/Title" edit box (no need exists to enter an email address for security purposes since your post is set to "Public," and there are no passwords on this website). This is my tenth message so I'm not sure I'll be in a position to post anything else here for awhile. At any rate, I'll look for your post to appear by clicking the "Archive" button and searching for "53questions" within the next 24 hours (which is why I asked you to change "Post expiration" to "1 Day"), after which your post will be automatically deleted by Pastebin.com automation. I intend to answer all 53 of your questions accepting three of your four (4) conditions: "a)Use the Bible to answer. b)Don't change topic. c)And answer DIRECTLY." As for as your fourth condition "d)I want the answer well written," I'm going to be as brief as possible. It seems to me that you can always pose follow-up questions later.

26

generation overlap

by diamondiiz in

does it appear that the feb 15, 2008 was setting jws for a future generation change?.

can we calculate the length of this generation?.

the word generation usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

djeggnog

@TD:

I see no real need to "clarify" my position any further; you want to argue with someone and that's fine. I do not. (BTW, I don't intend to humor you, but I do not wish the "condescending tone" in this post to interfere with the things I'm about to say to you here, since I'm not concerned that something I might say here could hurt your feelings.)

You refer to "JW theology and beliefs," "JW publications" and "JW leaders and policy makers," but I suppose that I could be described as being all of these things, but they would inadequately describe my function as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, but I will respond nonetheless by asking you to ask your wife, "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?" (Luke 12:42) that "faithful ... steward" that provides spiritual food for the household of faith, and to also explain to you just how the "Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses" and the "Writing Committee" differs from one another, and now I will go on to provide my responses:

First, that the concept of someone having a "personal theology" among Jehovah's Witnesses is quite foreign to me since we believe that there is but one truth, or, to put this in the vernacular that you seem to prefer, "one theology."

Second, when you read what things I write here, the "policy makers" are Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, in this order, and as long as you make use of the advantage you have -- being married to one of Jehovah's Witnesses -- and undertake a study of the Bible with her or with someone else, you will acquire sufficient knowledge that may build your faith in the things that you have learned from the Bible. If faith should not obtain as a result of your making this effort, that would be unfortunate, but the great tribulation has not yet begun, so as long as Jehovah's Witnesses continue to publish the established heavenly kingdom of God as a witness, there is still time for you to build faith in God and in His promises.

Third (and last), I do not know how to include Greek text here, but you do, and the fact that you presented the Greek word rendered "generation" in most English language Bibles for Matthew 23:36 and 24:34 makes my point apparent to all: That while both of these Greek words are rendered "generation," they are not identical, partially for the reasons you gave, but for one more important reason, which you ignored in my previous post:

When Jesus used the words "this generation" at Matthew 23:36, he had in mind those Jews that were alive contemporaneous with the tribulation that befell the Jewish system of things in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. However, the words "this generation" that he uses at Matthew 24:34 are contemporaneous with the events that would occur -- notice -- "after the tribulation of those days" when "the sign of the Son of man" will appear in heaven "during the presence of the Son of man" at the end of this wicked system of things. (Matthew 24:37) It would be good if you would only take into consideration Jesus' words at Matthew 24:29, 30, but, as much as I hate to say this, none of this is rocket science: Study the Bible, build faith in God, repent, turn around and orient yourself in an opposite direction (that is, toward God), dedicate your life to God's service (as has your wife and as many others have already done) and get baptized that you may enter the antitypical ark and be one of the survivors when the end [of this system of things] comes. [sarcasm]How hard can this be?[/sarcasm]

22

Neither the Bible or Dictionary support the new light on the Generation

by wasblind in

according to the governing body, the anointed who were on hand in 1914 will overlap the lives of todays anointed.

these two groups make up one generation.. "bull".

the bible supports the dictionaries definition of generation, matthew 1:1-17 shows abraham, isaac and jacob as three separate generations, verse 17 says: "all the generations, then, from abraham until david were fourteen generations.. the dictionaries definition say: all people born around the same time; a single stage in the descent of a family or group.

djeggnog

@TD:

"They're attempting to define a generation around a shared experience or event."

What you say here is correct; "this generation" (Matthew 24:34) is clearly such a definition.

"The 'World War II' generation is a good example of this usage."

Actually, Tom Brokaw (NBC News) called this generation (no pun intended) "the Greatest Generation." I'm agreeing with you here, too.

"The problem is, this doesn't work unless the event is fairly short in duration."

Nonsense. I'll just stop here. If you should decide to respond, please take as long as you need. This is conjecture on your part and it flies in the face of the truth. What truth do I mean? Read on.

@agonus:

You provided the Greek word _genea_ [Strong's G1074] used at Matthew 24:34, which is rendered "generation" in most English language Bibles, but which can also be used in referring to a period of time, like, for example, the Dark Ages, also known as "the Early Medieval Period," which encompassed several generations, from, say, 500 AD to 1000 AD (I'm approximating the dates, but I'm sure you are getting my drift here), which was followed by the Middle Ages, also known as "the Medieval Period," which also encompassed several generations, from 1000 AD to 1500 AD, which was followed by the Renaissance, which covered about two centuries from 1500 AD to 1700 AD. I think you can see where I'm going with this. Read on.

@WingCommander:

You wrote "May 15th, 1984 WatchTower articles ... as absolute PROOF of 1914 and This Generation," but I don't believe this issue to be the one you intended, so would you please check this reference.

@wasblind

I'm absolutely certain now, if I wasn't before, that the phrase "overlapping generations" will either be fleshed out some more or just dropped, since I've read many of the posts here and now I don't see how the use of this phrase is going to be all that helpful to those that are wrongly construing the paragraph in which the word "overlap" is used to describe Christ's anointed brothers that not only discern the composite sign, but live contemporaneously to its manifesting itself from 1914 to the period when the great tribulation has begun. A couple of quotes that are pertinent to this topic are as follows:

"As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day 'generation' of contemporaries that will not pass away 'until all these things occur.'" ["Christ's Presence-What Does it Mean to You?" (w08 2/15, p. 24, ¶15)]

However, nothing that you have read in the Watchtower -- ever -- has said a thing about there being two generations, let alone that the Bible supports the combining of "two generations as one."

26

generation overlap

by diamondiiz in

does it appear that the feb 15, 2008 was setting jws for a future generation change?.

can we calculate the length of this generation?.

the word generation usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

djeggnog

@AwSnap:

Let me just say that this is just a paraphrase of what Jesus stated at Matthew 24:14, but my insertion of the word "satisfactorily" into it is based, in part, on what Jesus stated at Matthew 10:23 regarding our not being able to "complete the circuit," not of the cities of Israel, not just Judea, Galilee and Peraea, but at Matthew 28:19, Jesus assigns to his followers the entire world as their territory beyond the borders of Palestine.

Keeping in mind what Jesus says at Matthew 10:23, one can rightly infer from Jesus' words at Matthew 24:14 that at some point the witness will have been given to the extent possible "until the Son of man arrives" as God's Executioner to bring God's judgment against the world (2 Thessalonians 1:9-11); this good news of the kingdom will be preached as a witness to as many people as we can reach and then the foretold "end will come."

Jesus instructed us to flee to another city whenever we are persecuted in any city, so while there are still problems in Russia (the Moscow congregation), I learned today from one of my Russian brothers that "one union of JWs here won matter on [the] European Court," so our witness may not reach everyone in the world before the end comes (e.g., the kingdom of Saudi Arabia), but just as Roman General Titus withdrew suddenly allowing Jesus' followers to flee Jerusalem, maybe these bans on religious freedom will suddenly fall for a few years, giving us the opportunity to bear witness to the truth in lands currently unavailable to us.

26

generation overlap

by diamondiiz in

does it appear that the feb 15, 2008 was setting jws for a future generation change?.

can we calculate the length of this generation?.

the word generation usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

djeggnog

@TD:

Jesus mentioned just one "generation" at Matthew 24:34, making no mention whatsoever of two generations. It goes without saying (but I'll say it for you!) that anyone that is born again, as was the Lord Jesus Christ, when baptized in holy spirit, is said to have received an anointing by means of God's holy spirit, so God's firstborn, Jesus (Psalm 2:2; Acts 4:26), and those that comprise "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) became spiritually-anointed ones, who were adopted as God's "sons" (Romans 9:4) and thus becoming brothers of Jesus, all 144,000 of whom are "the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens" (Hebrews 12:23).

So just as Moses was an "anointed one" or "Christ" (Hebrews 11:26), and Moses' brother Aaron and King David were 'anointed ones of Jehovah' (Leviticus 4:5; 2 Samuel 22:51), King Cyrus of Persia (Isaiah 45:1), even all of Jehovah's prophets are said to be God's "anointed ones" (Psalm 105:15). However, you are free to believe that the concept of being "anointed" didn't exist until Pentecost.

I'm going to ask that you be straightforward in your presentation of scriptural proofs, because I will humor you this time by saying that one may easily compare the Greek word used at Matthew 23:36 with one used at Matthew 24:34 to discern that they are not just "materially different," but different words altogether, but more than this, when using the words "this generation" at Matthew 23:36, Jesus had in mind those Jews that were alive contemporaneous with the tribulation that befell the Jewish system of things in 70 AD, when Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans.

However, this is the point: The words "this generation" at Matthew 24:34, if you would only read Matthew 24:29, 30, are contemporaneous with the events that would occur -- notice -- "after the tribulation of those days" when "the sign of the Son of man" will appear in heaven "during the presence of the Son of man" at the end of this wicked system of things. (Matthew 24:37) I don't have a problem with anyone embellishing an outline, except when the material it presents is rendered unrecognizable by the liberties taken with the outline.

Personally, I don't care how anyone says anything, but if what is said is represented as coming from the Bible, it should at least be true. My theocratic library is quite extensive with most everything I have as hard copies also available to me at my fingertips in some electronic format, which includes the Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (originally produced back in 1969), and so much more beyond just what has ever been published by the Society, so I asking you to please not attempt to bluff me again.

43

I will write down questions and start asking JW's for answers.

by XPeterX in

should i try it?questions about dates,gb policy,history of the org.

etc.i think i will confuse them and surprise them a lot (especially the elders)..

djeggnog

Back during the week of January 11-17, 2010, the article you mention here, "Treasure Your Place in the Congregation," was studied in all of the congregations worldwide, but I'm sure that there were told that read paragraph 13-15, and didn't understand what was being suggested. Even though you may by now have forgotten the contents of this article [w09 11/15, pp. 13-17, I'm going to speak to just two (2) points here and stop:

POINT ONE

In paragraph 13, sisters were encouraged to have a more active share in the disciple-making work, after having also mentioned in paragraph 8 how two siblings took different paths after completing high school, one had decided to reach out and became a regular pioneer while her sister decided to get a full-time job to make the point that "each did what she wanted to do." It then went on to ask the question: "Is that not true with most of us?" I'm sure many people didn't get the sense of this question, but the point being made is that one must do what he or she decides to do, and not do what some influential brother or sister in the congregation, even your own parents, should decide for you.

POINT TWO

In paragraph 14 and 15, in pursuing their responsibilities as Christian woman and wives, they can be just as helpful to the congregation as those taking the lead in winning unbelievers over to Christ when it comes to things like chasteness and goodness, that they might not, by their manner of dress and by the things they do or that any children in their care do, cause the word of God to be spoken of abusively by folks on the outside. I have conveniently uploaded the slightly-edited script from the 1975 drama portrayed during the Divine Sovereignty District Convention, entitled "That the Word of God May Not Be Spoken of Abusively," which will serve to make my second point.

http://tinyurl.com/26o9q9x

While all of the convention dramas always contain elements in them that entertain, the parts I've highlighted in yellow in the script have spiritual significance that in our sexist and ultra-sensitive world supposedly spiritual-minded men and women (all of them imperfect and some even taking the lead!) typically will miss when discussing such dramas that climax our conventions when the lights go down and folks return to their home congregations to discuss the new releases they might courageously and obediently offer to the neighbors, but never seem to find the time to read (let alone study!) themselves. (A very long sentence, huh? <g>)

26

generation overlap

by diamondiiz in

does it appear that the feb 15, 2008 was setting jws for a future generation change?.

can we calculate the length of this generation?.

the word generation usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

djeggnog

When we are given an outline for a talk, we do not read from it verbatim, repeating what it say word for word, as was the case during the 1974 District Assembly. Now back in 1958, for example, Knorr delivered the discourse, "God's Kingdom Rules - Is The World's End Near," at the Divine Will Convention held at Yankee Stadium, which, being an international assemblage, was also broadcast at the Polo Grounds, which was reproduced in the Watchtower (w58 10/15, p. 625), and while Knorr may have attempted to deliver this keynote address word for word, he was unsuccessful in doing so. (It's not that I have such a great memory, but I have the recording, and at the time I was reading the text of it as I listened to it.)

The only point I really wanted to make here is one I made before: The Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Hebrews 7:28), and today is no different; Jehovah continues to use imperfect men to get His will accomplished, for they are being used to gather the things on the earth together that will form the nucleus of the new world society. I like this phrase, "the new world society," even though it is one that is hardly used today, and even though some of these imperfect men may have embellished (and did embellish!) a few of these outlines and began to preach their own gospel, which encouraged certain behavior that began before 1975 (and which led to many folks leaving us for a time after 1975 until some thankfully regained their senses and returned!), folks need to take a right viewpoint, and stop all the craziness: Jesus said no one knows the "day and hour." Forget about applying the Joseph analogy to a timeline. I didn't believe Armageddon was coming in 1975, but it's true that many of my "contemporaries" <smile> in those days felt this way, and so what?

Look, there is no "1914 generation" and no "Armageddon generation"; there is but one "anointed generation" -- "this generation" of folks that lived contemporaneous to when the composite "sign" that Jesus provides in Matthew 24 and 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 appeared in 1914, and many of the people in this generation will still be alive after the great tribulation and "will by no means pass away until all these things occur," so these anointed ones will live to see the end of this wicked system of things. That is what "the man" said, and no one has "sayings of everlasting life," so why shouldn't we listen to this Holy One of God? (Compare John 19:5; 6:68)

Hopefully this explanation will convince some here to stop expecting perfection from imperfect human beings, to stop expecting imperfect people to be able to bridle their bodies when it is not natural for any sinful human to want to be obedient to themselves (Romans 7:15), let alone to God, for no one wants a bridle in their mouth (James 3:2, 3). After the Millennial Reign of Christ, obedience will then come naturally to us.

Thanks for the welcome, AnnOMaly. Yugoslavia, huh? Your nick sounds Irish <g>).

26

generation overlap

by diamondiiz in

does it appear that the feb 15, 2008 was setting jws for a future generation change?.

can we calculate the length of this generation?.

the word generation usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event.

djeggnog

Firstly, "the term 'generation' as used by Jesus [at Matthew 24:34] refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." (wt95 11/1, p. 17, ¶6) Secondly, Jesus compared the generation in his day to the one in Noah's day at [Matthew 24:37-39], it seems clear that the people in Noah's generation paralleled the people in "this generation" which began when the sign of Jesus' second coming became manifest in the year 1914. (I would take note the use of the word "this generation" as they are used at Genesis 7:1.] Thirdly, even if we should be able to determine when "this generation" began, we would still be unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."

Having said this, should we give consideration to what Exodus 1:6 says regarding the death of Joseph, Jacob's/Israel's son, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," then based on how old Joseph was when he died -- 110 -- then his contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers and Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died. Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous to the "sign" in 1914 would correspond to Joseph's birth and Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died would also have been contemporaries of Joseph.

Since the separation of sheep from goats doesn't begin until "immediately after" the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29), and Jesus specifically stated at Matthew 24:34 'this generation would not pass away until all these things [that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] have occurred,' including the tribulation, then it would seem that just as Joseph's contemporaries were still living when Joseph died, then some of Jesus spiritual brothers would still be alive after the tribulation.

The fact that our current year of 2010 is 96 years removed from the year 1914 does not help one do any more than speculate as to the year when the end will come, for we arrive at the year 2024 when counting 110 years forward from 1914 and the Bible is silent as to when Manasseh and Ephraim, who were born in Egypt, but were contemporaries of their father, died.

Now trying to prove Jesus' wrong when he indicated that no man knows "that day or the hour" is such a ridiculous exercise as trying the calculate the year when "the end will come," but it'll come when the good news will have been [satisfactorily] preached in all the earth, which is something that Jesus also said (Matthew 24:14), for if Jesus did know 'the day or hour' when he said this, why would he have lied?

Berating spiritual-minded members of the GB or other Christians for doing what they can to encourage Christians to stay awake and keep them from going to sleep when they need to be vigilant with a view to prayer is evidently the preoccupation of some, but remember just as the Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Hebrews 7:28), Jehovah uses men today that are just as imperfect, who may at times have gotten it wrong and might even have said some zany things they we might wish they did not say. But most of us here know more of what things the Bible teaches that most the truth because of the work of such dedicated "men," both past and present, including Jesus, including Paul, that have been doing their best to 'keep watch over our souls.' (Hebrews 13:17)

50

JWs pretended to be someone else at my door.

by myusername in

this is probably in the wrong section, but i couldn't decide where to put it.

i was raised a jw and i still suffer effects from that kind of upbringing.. anyway, they said they were local community volunteers and they wanted to give me something related to the community.

i didn't open the door but they put a jw tract through it.. i don't think it's right to be so devious about recruitment.

djeggnog

"[E]ven if the householder is not interested I would still have borne witness to Jehovah's name and the 'sorting' work would occur." Perhaps you haven't heard, so I thought I would mention here that this "'sorting' work" occurs after the great tribulation begins (w95, 10/15, p23, ¶3).