@djeggnog wrote:
Moses, for the most part, completes the book of Deuteronomy before his death in 1473 BC, 741 years before Isaiah completes the writing of his book, some 1,505 years before another God came into existence. So Jehovah's declaration through Moses at Deuteronomy 32:39 is true. Isaiah began to prophesy in the year 778 BC and the book bearing his name (Isaiah) came to be completed in or about the year 732 BC. What I am saying to you is this: When you read Jehovah's declaration through Isaiah at Isaiah 44:6 that "'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me? ... Does there exist a God besides me? No, there is no Rock. I have recognized none,'" is also true. One would need to realize that it would be 764 years after the completion of Isaiah's prophecy that another God came into existence, an only-begotten god, who was not only given by Jehovah God a name that is above every name named, but was the first to be given immortality. This God through whom even the angels of Jehovah render worship is God's firstborn Son, the God whose own God and Father, Jehovah, made Jesus both Lord and Christ. (Acts 2:36) So why not take a right viewpoint.
On edit, what I should have written is this (and I think this reads much better):
"This God through whom even the angels of Jehovah render worship is God's firstborn Son, the God whose own God and Father, Jehovah, made both Lord and Christ, Jesus. (Acts 2:36) So why not take a right viewpoint."
@Undisfellowshipped wrote:
Wow o wow! I am somewhat in shock from reading that.
First, let me tell you thanks and I appreciate hearing from a Witness an explanation of Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44:6. I have never had a Witness discuss those two verses with me before. The reason i am shocked is, that since you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses (you did say that you are a Witness, didn't you?) I was not expecting you to say what you said at all.
Yes, I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and I'm probably going to say many things here that you may have heard and were even taught, but as one of Jehovah's Witnesses -- for whatever reason -- you and others did not learn. Unlike many of Jehovah's Witnesses (and what I'm about to say is certainly cannot be said as to the majority of Jehovah's people by any means!), I don't "parrot" what things I hear others say, nor do I permit anyone to tell me according to their own understanding of what they believe the WTS means by something they have read in our publications. At Luke 8:17, 18, Jesus said the following:
For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest, neither anything carefully concealed that will never become known and never come into the open. Therefore, pay attention to how you listen; for whoever has, more will be given him, but whoever does not have, even what he imagines he has will be taken away from him.
It seems evident that you heard me and, more importantly, that you were paying attention. I know this is like you've been transported to a Kingdom Hall somewhere and sharing a point or two with you that you've never heard before even though the WTS has published these point several times in recent years, but for whatever reason, even though you believe you have at all times been "paying attention," you were just memorizing what things you were hearing. Maybe because the points that were being made sounded like new information that you had never come across before, maybe you were fascinated by the speaker's charisma, who knows, but were you listening? Hardly. Well, you're doing fine if you're able to "pay attention" to what I am saying to you and everyone else here, but you will do better if you "pay attention to how you listen" to what I say here.
First of all, I would like to ask for clarification of your statement.
Ok, I'm going to be responding to this and to the rest of your questions momentarily, but before I do so, I'm going to digress here a moment, @Undisfellowshipped, and then pick up from where this digression began in a subsequent post.
You say you were "somewhat in shock" over what things I said in my previous post, but this board has surprised me a lot, too. I had thought by my joining @Undisfellowshipped's thread here, I would hear new arguments or actually facelifts of old arguments made over, or even some brand new ones by apostates,* but nothing like this is occurring, and @Undisfellowshipped comes across to me as being a nice guy with very strong trinitarian beliefs, but for some reason he's not bringing it. Why it's interesting that no one at all here has yet attacked me for attacking their particular theological viewpoint on the trinity using only the NWT, and my guess is that this is due to the respect that many people on this forum have for the Bible; I don't really know.
I'd have to say that @Peacedog "brought it," like the kids are wont to say. He was pulling no punches with me and that was great, because you won't get to know the truth unless you are willing to fight for it. It's not going to be given to you and, sad to say, many of the young people that were raised in Christian households, or, as we used to say, "raised in the truth," become adults and often decide to leave the truth (why?) because they didn't fight for the faith. And why is that? Because they were never taught what the apostle Paul meant by what he was admonishing all Christians to do at 1 Timothy 6:12:
Fight the fine fight of the faith, get a firm hold on the everlasting life for which you were called and you offered the fine public declaration in front of many witnesses.
Some of you here are baptized, which means that you have made an unreserved dedication to God to do His will and recognize your responsibility to work, not by your lonesome, preaching your own version of the good news, but with Jehovah’s spirit-directed organization. So on two counts many folks have not been living up to their dedication, but they like the fine Christian association and most of their friends are Jehovah's Witnesses and they don't want to lose that friendship, and many of them have family members in the truth now, and so they are attending meetings and going through the motions of serving God, but in reality they're not serving God at all, for they've pretty much left the truth as many of you here have done (why?) because no one has yet taught you, no one has yet taught any of them, that they need to fight for the faith.
Jesus told us how this can be done: By paying attention to how we listen. If you have been baptized, then you've made a dedication to Jehovah God to do His will and God won't let you take back your vow. In many ways, I'm just like Jehovah. You make a promise to me -- and I'm not talking about a loan because circumstances can suddenly change (like losing one's job or being diagnosed with the Big "C" or one of your children becomes gravely ill) and can often make our word to pay someone back what money we may have borrowed from them sour -- I'm expecting you to keep it. If you flake on me, that's ok, but I won't let you take back your promise to me, so if a deal of mine falls through because of you, you are somehow going to make it right or we're done.
This is how Jehovah is, too, for if you make a vow to Him and then, for any reason, should decide not to keep it, He's not trying to hear how the woman accidently fell on your penis about 27 times over the last eight months and how it became harder and harder to stop premeditatedly giving your credit card number to hotel clerks to facilitate these illicit liaisons with your lover (and now that you think of it, it may have been closer to 72 times!) or how surprised you were upon learning that your lover would actually lie to you about her taking birth control pills when your wife was in shock when she first came to learn that you, a congregation elder, were the subject of those judicial committee meetings. But if you who are Jehovah's property by virtue of the dedication that you have made to Him, you who have disowned yourself so that you now belong to God, have broken your vow of faithfulness to Him, Jehovah will exact punishment against any of His servants that should fail to keep his or her vow since a dedicated servant of His must make it right or Jehovah will cast you off forever. (1 Chronicles 28:9)
I've heard all of the excuses and so has Jehovah, but what He is interested in is faithfulness to one's vows, that we're keeping our word, our promise, our vow, because He wants us to attain to repentance in order that we might become the nucleus of the world to come, and if we should disappoint ourselves and engage in any acts of faithlessness toward God, Jehovah won't like it, but He knows our limitations with respect to the flesh and as long as we are repentant He's ever ready to forgive us our trespasses, and as long as we humbly accept discipline from Him, He will not remember our sin even, if like the prodigal, you've been out of His household and running from His discipline for 10, 15 or 20 years.
Now the paucity of Bible knowledge that exists here among posters that are still active Jehovah's Witnesses and ex-Jehovah's Witnesses is really the subject of the letter I'm currently writing ("you guys" are all anonymous, so don't worry!), but despite the insults and name-calling by some (from which folks derive much enjoyment, I guess) not one of the alleged apostates that are supposed to be here have yet to engage me. What I've seen here are hurt people, folks broken in spirit, but not a single apostate, because one must know the truth to be able to resist it or to speak against it. My hope is that by my presence here -- and I'm just one man -- some here will get to learn what the Bible teaches and not what they understood a particular article taught or what the elders in the Kingdom Halls they used to attend believed to be the truth, because the truth is found in the Bible and not in our publications.
I hope everyone is hearing me will understand that when I say here that the truth is not in our publications, what I'm saying is that our publications are not written under divine inspiration, and certainly not by infallible people. The proof of this is that the WTS always needs to make an adjustment to one of the doctrines we teach, like the adjustment in our understanding of "this generation" at Matthew 24:34 (why?) because our beliefs are not static, and we humbly realized that we were mistaken in our view on this, and so we printed an article to keep us all united in faith and speaking in agreement.
Some here, like you, @Undisfellowshipped, seem to derive enjoyment from posting old articles that contain information in them that they think Jehovah's Witnesses believe, and think they are right about what some Jehovah's Witnesses believe, even those we may no longer embraced such beliefs, which tells me that maybe they didn't know the truth and never did know it (sorry @Undisfellowshipped, but based solely on the things you said in this thread, I really believe this to be true about you). In this very thread, I did a kind of "commentary" on Hebrews chapters 1 and 2, and what I wrote was based on the truth as I know it, and not on something written in one of our publications (Why?) because for one thing, the truth is progressive, and, secondly, like I've already stated, an article written six months ago will often contain one thing or two in it that the worldwide association of brothers had to abandon because it was not based on truth.
Perhaps it would be good for all to read the points in the article, "Maintaining a Balanced Viewpoint Toward Disfellowshiped Ones" ([w74 8/1, 466-473]), for even though this article was published back in 1974, the information in it is still current in that speaks about humility and to the role of elders in helping you to regain an approved standing in God's Great Spiritual House where Jehovah God dwells in person. If you've been baptized, you already have your white robe, you're already dedicated, but you need to be able to put it on since only white robe wearers are being saved through the coming great tribulation. It is maybe @Titus' shtick to say this, but he's right about the concern of some here about the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to this forum getting into trouble.
The WTS publishes these kinds of articles because many Jehovah's Witnesses, who have been such for 10, 20, 30 years, have proven to be easy prey for disgruntled ones and apostates, especially family members, and they have fallen victim to their tactics because they were in the truth, but didn't know it sufficiently to defend against these predators of their faith, which is why websites like this one, which can cause whatever doubts that one has to surface, can damage one's relationship with Jehovah, and this is the reason for the advice given regarding the dangers of social networks and the like. Why on earth would someone be disfellowshipped for visiting this website? If it were a porn website on the internet that one was to visit, and one's addiction to making such visits to the site should manifest itself in loose conduct that cannot be retarded and curbed, this, of course, would be a different matter.
Those of you here that think you can go back to 1924 or 1896 or whatever and discover what Jehovah's Witnesses believe today are just ignorant about the progressive nature of the Christian faith in which we all ought to be walking. If you cannot use your own Bible to explain what things you believe without pulling out the "Reasoning," "Bible Teach ..." or maybe the latest Watchtower to do so, then you don't know it, you need to study up on it, because just as Jesus didn't carry parchments in his ministry, Jesus' apostles didn't carry a lot of scrolls around with them in their ministry (and just maybe a letter or two), Jehovah's Witnesses should be able to adequately use the sword of the spirit to accomplish their ministry.
The Bible literature we have is to be used for personal or congregational study as well as in conducting Bible studies only, and if you didn't know this, then you didn't know, and Jehovah knows this. I'm convinced that Jehovah has not forgotten your work and the love you showed for His name (Hebrews 6:10) and if you've learned anything about Jehovah from you read of the Bible, you already know that He's very good at forgiving others, and not only that: Jehovah excels and take the lead in extending mercy to others. We have those things we like doing because Jehovah made us this way, and being merciful is His thing. Did you do something you knew to be wrong? Here a few things that might resonate with some of you here:
Did you enter a conspiracy with someone to do something wrong? Did you steal something (like a notebook PC) from your job? Maybe you assaulted someone because they disrespected you or someone with you? Did you murder someone? Or, did you touch someone's child improperly? Did you miss the euphoria of getting wasted and began to grope one of your spiritual sisters while drunk? Did cigarettes begin calling your name again? Did you have to do a little jail time for what you did or for what you were accused and found guilty of doing, and embarrassment, with everyone knowing what you did, is keeping you away. Is sitting next to the woman against whom conspired to obtain a divorce or sitting next to the man whose wife you stole and married so uncomfortable for you that you have stayed away?
I know the stories, I know many stories, I've heard the recriminations and I've heard the painful crying out, all of it, but Jehovah loves you anyway and He's forgiving all of this, even though your ex or her ex, or several of the sisters or one of the children you improperly touched have a righteous hatred for you and rightly so. That hatred is a part of the scourging that is due for what you did, but you did do it, so let them stare and talk about you, Jehovah is forgiving scarlet kind of sinners, too, not just the yellow kind or the green kind of sinners if you let him forgive you, even if no one else will. Maybe one year, two years, three years (what did you do?), but you'll be reinstated and all of the murmuring about you will diminish.
In the meantime, talk to the elders and arrange to study the Bible and you learn what things the Bible teaches, not what you believe the article or the book you read teaches. Ask questions, lots of them, and if the brother or the sister you ask cannot answer one of them or doesn't want to answer one of them, find someone else. Come here to this forum and ask me; I'll answer all of your Bible-related questions. Maybe I can find someone near you to help you as well. But learn the truth, learn what the Bible teaches and don't let the imperfections of others cause you to lose the opportunity to be numbered among that "great crowd" that comes out of the great tribulation.
I believe that the majority of this "category" of posters (for lack of a better way to describe them) have learned more about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and how the preaching work is organized, but less about what things the Bible teaches. Read the Bible, use the publications to help you to learn what it says and asking others for help with the harder to understand things, know what it says and only then can you live by what it says.
Either way, I have never ever heard a Jehovah's Witness teach this or believe this (I was "raised in the truth" and I went to meetings for 20 years and talked to many many Jehovah's Witnesses).
Like I stated above, it is evident to me that no one ever taught you that a servant of God must fight for the faith. Consequently, you went through the motions growing up, but were never "in the truth."
In fact, either way you meant it, are you aware that what you said actually goes against the Watchtower Society's official teachings in their publications? For the benefit of all of the viewers of this thread (and perhaps to enlighten you if you overlooked these Watchtower publications), I am going to post a few direct quotes from these Watchtower publications right here:
Don't be silly. Between you and I, I'm the one "in the truth" and you don't get to "enlighten" me on anything, except as to the basis of your belief in the Trinity doctrine. Jehovah's Witnesses have beliefs that are based on the Bible, but what we do not have are "official teachings" since something we may have believed to be true nine months ago will quickly be abandoned when as adjustment in our understanding of a particular doctrinal matter becomes necessary. I have said nothing new or anything that departs from what Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the Bible teaches.
What may be our understanding today may become what we used to believe tomorrow, so we really do not have any official teachings. BTW, the WTS is only the publishing arm of Jehovah's Witnesses where our governing body meets to discuss current events in the light of Bible prophecy and to organize our worldwide preaching activity. You may, in fact, be one of those that spent over 20 years learning more about what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and about the WTS, without their really having learned anything as to what things the Bible teaches. Memorizing scriptures and specific articles printed by the WTS is no substitute for obtaining an accurate knowledge of Bible truth.
Anyway, I am familiar with much of what is contained in our publications, but, as I understand it, @Undisfellowshipped, this particular thread is about whether the Trinity doctrine has scriptural support:
We are agreed that this debate/discussion will be about whether the Trinity Doctrine is taught or supported in the Bible, using the New World Translation.
What this thread is not about is what a particular article that appeared in the Watchtower might have stated about the Trinity. If I should feel I need proof from you of something contained in one of our publications, I will ask you, but this preoccupation of yours (and others here) of quoting old articles to make your point is not the same as your quoting from the Bible to make your point. It wastes the time of everyone here that thought they would be reading a discussion or debate having to do with the Trinity doctrine, only to discover instead that you want to post articles written by folks who aren't here to defend what things they have written. If there is going to be much more of this, I will have to withdraw, because right now you are derailing your own thread by not discussing what the Bible itself teaches that you believe supports the Trinity doctrine.
When I was going to meetings for 20 years, the Witnesses always taught that Jesus was a god right from the beginning, from when He was first created, before the Universe was created.
So what exactly do you understand me to be saying here? Are you reading just my words here without comprehension kicking in? Jehovah's Witnesses believe what things the Bible teaches, and one of the things that Bible teaches is that Jesus had a prehuman existence, and that before he became the man, Jesus, he was "a god," an angelic creature, whose name is Michael, and it was Jesus (Michael) that served as a master worker alongside God in '[laying] the foundations of the earth" (Hebrews 1:10; Psalm 102:25-27).
Now, if you truly believe what you said up above, if you believe that is what the Scriptures teach, then that is fine, you should teach it then, but I was just shocked to see that your beliefs were so different from the Watchtower's teachings on this.
Why do you conflate what things are taught in Watchtower articles with the things that the Bible itself teaches? There are some places on Planet Earth where there are hardly Bibles available to Jehovah's Witnesses to use, let alone any of our literature, but the brothers and sisters in these lands regularly conduct home Bible studies using just their own Bible and their own notes. You seem to be like many active Jehovah's Witnesses today that pore through the Watchtower articles and books contained on the WT Library CD in search of articles that they think will impress the congregation, even the elders, because they really do not know the truth, and their motives are not right with Jehovah for they crave the praise and attention they receive and never study to show themselves approved. After 10 years, after 20 years, after 30 years, they drift away from us because they were putting their faith in WTS publications and "always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth." (2 Timothy 3:7) Perhaps this very thing that I have just described here has happened in your case, @Undisfellowshipped. You are currently not an active Witness, and yet you love quoting from WTS literature as if our literature has as much or more value than the Bible. Now I am an active Witness and yet you do not see me quoting or citing article after article after article to make any of my points! What is wrong with this picture?
*An apostate would be someone that has become decidedly alienated from God in that he or she has come to learn what things the Bible teaches, but resists what things he or she has learned by teaching and saying things to others that he or she not only knows to be false, knows these things to be contrary to what the Bible teaches. I have said that one doesn't necessarily need to have submitted to water baptism to behave in an apostate manner and believe me: This is true.