@lisaBObesa wrote:
Exactly. That is what the Watchtower has repeatedly promised Jehovah's Witnesses. They said that they KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN before the generation alive in 1914 passed away. But they didn't KNOW. They were just guessing. THEY LIED to you.
@djeggnog wrote:
I see I have to be careful about my word choices when I talk to you here, because when I used the word "promised" here, you took my use of the word as an unconditional promise; I didn't mean as in I had "promised" to give you a ride to work this morning if you managed to get to my house before I left without conditions, for I had also told you that you had to be at my house no later than 7:35 am. My promise was a conditional one, so if you got left, it would have been because you weren't there by 7:35 am.
@lisaBObesa wrote:
***I hope everyone please reads the above exchange.***
Djeggnog, they said they were certain that those living in 1914 would not all pass away before the end came. They said that JESUS promised that the generation of 1914 would not pass away.
You quoted something from the article, "Where Are We According to God's Timetable?" in the Watchtower, dated May 1, 1967, and made your entire argument based on the something contained in the following quote:
"Interestingly, the autumn of the year 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience. This is ascertainable from reliable chronology preserved in the Bible itself. What will that year mean for humankind? Will it be the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand-year reign of his Son Jesus Christ? It very well could, but we will have to wait to see. Yet of this we can be certain: the generation that Jesus said would witness those events is nearing its close. The time is close at hand. On God’s 'timetable' we are in the closing days of a wicked system of things that will soon be gone forever. A glorious new order is immediately before us."
As I was reading this, I had in mind what a basketball coach in high school might say to the kids on the team as an encouragement to make them go out and do their vest best to win the championship game for which they have worked so very hard to become a contender in this final game of the season.
Of this I am certain: You guys are the best this year, the best in the game; we've beaten everyone that dared to compete against us and we beat each one of those teams convincingly. This game is our final test of our determination to play like a well-oiled unit, the battle of all battles, true, but the one that will make people talk about this championship team for decades. We are going to make history for this school and in the future every time any one of you thinks back on what happened here today, you will smile. Oh, yes. You will smile and remember how you all contributed to decimating every team that stood before you, including the one that stands before you today, how you guys left it all out there on the court for all to see and showed your mettle, and demonstrated to all that what you are all made of, a force with which no one could contend, the best of the best, a team using its individual talents to play as a team with an unselfishness like no team has every played before.
Whomever is hot, we feed that player and we keep feeding that player and we keep feeding that player, and we keep moving the ball so that no one realizes that our strategy is to keep feeding the next hot player when double coverage of the previous hot player frees up whoever becomes the next hot player. When they double team anyone, they decide for us who the next hot player will be. They steal the ball. We're back on defense. They intercept the ball. We're back on defense. But on every possession, whether in the paint or behind the arc, we keep feeding whoever it hot, and we keep feeding that player and we keep moving the ball and feeding that player. No team has faced a team more determined than you are to win games. This is what we do. No one can beat us.
Of this I am certain: You will soon be telling your children and your grandchildren about what you did here today, how you were able to accomplish what no other team of your caliber every did, and due to your unselfish play, you will have earned the respect of everyone that has every played this game. We did not come this far just to lose the Big Game. When they see our style on the court, they will marvel over how we were able to dominate everyone to get to the Big Game, but they will see how we were able to remain unbeaten for the entire season because our only ethic this year, this season, this game, has been to play winning basketball, to put points on the scoreboard and to win games. This is what we do. No one can beat us. A glorious future awaits each one of us.
Could the end come in 2012? Yes. Could it come this year in 2010? It very well could, but we will have to wait to see. "Yet of this we can be certain: the generation that Jesus said would witness those events is nearing its close. The time is close at hand. On God’s 'timetable' we are in the closing days of a wicked system of things that will soon be gone forever. A glorious new order is immediately before us."
Did Jehovah's Witnesses ever say, in this Watchtower article, dated May 1, 1967 -- in the article you quoted here that is entitled, "Where Are We According to God's Timetable?" -- that we were certain that those living in 1914 would not all pass away before the end came? No, we did not say that. Only if our calculations were correct, would this be the case, but we never made a prediction that those living in 1914 would not all pass away before the end came. At Mark 13:32, Jesus said that 'nobody knows that day or hour' and we believe him. Do you believe Jehovah's Witnesses know something about that day or hour even though Jesus said "nobody knows"? This sounds to me like a problem you have in believing Jesus. You want to believe we know something that Jesus said "nobody knows," and you are willing to beat up on Jehovah's Witnesses because they don't know something that Jesus said "nobody knows." If someone should say to you, they know when the end is coming, you, being a Bible reader, someone that has read Jesus' words many times, should not be thinking that Jesus lied when he said that "nobody knows," you should not be wondering if maybe somebody does know "that day or hour," because you know what Jesus said in the Bible on this point. I don't care if it is one of Jehovah's Witnesses that should say this, you hate us anyway, why should you believe what Jehovah's Witnesses say. Your life changed dramatically because you thought you read in the Watchtower that we were certain that those living in 1914 would not all pass away before the end came, although the Watchtower didn't say this at all, so beat up on us, but beat up on yourself, too, because it is you that thought you read something in the Watchtower that contradicted what Jesus said on this point and you preferred to believe what you thought the Watchtower had said instead of what the Bible said on this point.
If the basketball team to whom the coach gave such a stirring speech as an encouragement to them before they went out there to play that final championship game should have lost that game -- they didn't lose it, but let's just say they did lose that game -- the win wasn't certain, there was no prediction; only encouragement to stick to the game plan was given to the team. But they won the game. Jehovah's Witnesses are out there every day giving others encouragement to win the race for life, and many have endured to the end and have become winners. We know that a glorious future awaits those who have endured to the end for they will receive a resurrection in God's new order.
Now what about us, @lisaBObesa? The race is not over for us yet; the end has not yet come and we still live. Whether we live to be one of the unnumbered great crowd that the apostle John saw in his vision coming out of the great tribulation after Armageddon or we race ends in this life before Armageddon, only the one that has endured to the end will be saved. This we know. Let us do our utmost to win the race for life, to endure to the end, whether it be through Armageddon or after our resurrection. (Revelation 7:9, 14; Matthew 24:13; 1 Corinthians 9:24)
@djeggnog wrote:
In conclusion, the recent information in the Watchtower about "this generation" didn't change our understanding of what occurred in 1914. We were guessing, but we didn't lie to anyone. Although you and others missed it, we spelled out our viewpoint on the matter and we made no promises whatsoever as to any specific year. You choose to believe this, but this is not true at all.
@lisaBObesa wrote:
^^^You [yourself] say they were only guessing about this.^^^ But they didn't say 'maybe the end would come before the generation of 1914 passed away.' They said JESUS said that the end would come before the generation of 1914 passed away. They said JESUS SAID. There was no 'conditions.' There was no 'speculating' about this. They said it was a FACT.
That is a lie. A LIE. They didn't know it for sure, and yet they said they knew it for sure. They called it "The Truth." It was not "the truth.' It was only a guess. They are liars. Leave this false religion.
You had the Bible and you knew what Jesus stated in it. You had to know that we were speculating as to when the end could come because you also knew that Jesus had said that 'nobody knew' when the end could come. We were making an educating guess as to when the end might come, but we could not predict when the end could come because we didn't know then and we don't know now when the end is coming; "nobody knows," says the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems you want Jehovah's Witnesses to know when the end is coming, but why us? Why don't you want someone else to know when the end is coming? Why do you want Jehovah's Witnesses in particular to know something that Jesus said "nobody knows," @lisaBObesa? Let's find out what this anger in you is all about, because, quite frankly, you don't sound to me like a reasonable person if you should really think that Jehovah's Witnesses ought to have known something that you have yourself read in the Bible that is unknowable by us, that we cannot know, because Jesus said that "nobody knows."
No, we are not liars. You are the one that keeps saying that we said we were "certain," but you have produced no proof to that effect. I have asked you more than once for it, but you have failed to produce any proof. You read more into words than are really there and then expect me to explain to you why they say to you what they don't say to others that can both read the English language and comprehend it. We've gone round and round on this point and all you've been doing here is repeating yourself; you've presented nothing new. You're wrong and your quotations from the various articles prove you're wrong. There's absolutely nothing in any of these quotes that provide support for your contentions.
No, @lisaBObesa, Jehovah's Witnesses are practicing true religion, we believe what things the Bible teaches, we believe in the truth, and the truth is that "nobody knows" when the end is coming. Ok?
In a previous post, I spoke about conditional and unconditional promises, but even a six-year-old child knows that an unconditional promise can become a conditional one. When they look outside and see that it is raining cats and dogs, they realize that the promise that they were given by their parents about their spending all day Saturday at the amusement park was a conditional one. So they go to their parents, not to cry to them about how they didn't keep their promise, but to try to elicit another promise from them for next Saturday, assuming in their little hearts that it doesn't rain next Saturday and Mom and Dad have nothing else planned for that day.
For all I know, you might even be a child. I cannot really tell based on what you have written, so I'd better just leave it at that and ask you, like the kids say, to stop trippin'.
@Listener:
I am not mistaken eggnog, there was a convention that was held in the USA, Australia and other places. It was called and organised at such short notice that many JWs were not able to make arrangements to attend. It may have been held in 1976 but I'm pretty sure it was in 1975. There were several congregations invited to attend the one talk at the same time and held at public venues. It ran for just over an hour. The topic was specifically to clarify the misunderstandings of the 6,000 years since the creation of Adam being identified as [occurring] in 1975.
I am righteously indignant over what you have said here, @Listener, and you are very mistaken. Of course, you can't possibly know what I've been doing over the years in connection with cataloguing the various conventions held here in the US, which conventions are also held in the UK, in Australia, in many other countries, but I know that you cannot possibly know what you're talking about. Now if anyone here should believe what you are saying here, that would be @Listener: 1; @djgeggnog: 0, and I'm ok with that.
There have been no such conventions either scheduled or held among Jehovah's Witnesses in either 1975 or post-1975, conventions designed to do "damage control" over the apostate viewpoint as to the significance of 1975, which "false doctrine" had spread across the US, in the UK and in certain other countries around the globe. (I cannot tell you what was going on specifically in Australia, but I know what was going on here in the US and in some other places.) It was sad that what occurred did occur, but it served to identify those that were not of our sort and I'm going to leave it there.
@aligot ripounsous:
Only the Father knows "that day and hour."
DJ, I heard a few times this silly reasoning from JWs whereby Jehovah may have hidden the day and hour from humans but must have given his servants a few clues as to the month and year of the occurrence of Armageddon. Can you please reassure me and tell me that this isn't what you meant in your post.
I meant what I've been saying through this thread: Jesus said that no one knows "that day and hour." Period. Are their hints that let us know where we are in the stream of time? Yes. Are there enough of them that could lead us to determine "that day and hour"? Jehovah's Witnesses may have thought so, but when we came to realize that we really had no real idea what it was Jesus meant when he used the word "generation" at Matthew 24:34, we came to realize that he meant what he said at Matthew 24:36: "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." What we do know, @aligot ripounsous, is that the end, and, of course, our salvation, is nearer now than it was yesterday.
@sabastious:
Jane is going to a drag strip to have some fun. John tells Jane that he has heard nothing but bad things about drag strips and has known a lot of people who have been involved in violence and revelry at them. He then decides to tell her that if she goes to this drag strip party she is going to be raped. Jane disregards John's speculative warning and ends up not getting raped and has the most fun of her life, turns out John was just spewing [stereotypes]. Did John make a false prediction? Was he in a position to make that prediction with such certainty? He didn't say she *might* get raped, he said she would.
It would be just your opinion that John was "spewing [stereotypes]." He feared for Jane's safety and so said what he did hoping that she could be persuaded to change her mind. Yes, John tells Jane that "she is going to be raped," but Jane knows that John is not making a prediction, but is merely expressing his concern for her safety. John is no more making a prediction than someone that says to someone, "If I were you, I would not drive to that neighborhood alone. You should get someone to ride with you if you must go." Like I said, this would not be a prediction either, but an expression of someone's concern for another's safety. Here's another one: "If you go down there by yourself, you are going to get yourself killed." A prediction? No. Is the one who says this tantamount to being a false prophet should the individual to whom these words were said show up later after having "gone down there" alive and well? No. He is still an individual that was concerned for another's safety, and that's it.
John says something terrible is going to befall Jane if she goes to the drag strip party. John also says that he is not going to be friends with Jane if she goes because John doesn't associate with people who go to drag strips. So John has a prejudice about drag strips and he is allowing it to affect his relationship with Jane. So it's not just a speculative prediction, it's an enforced position.
This is irrelevant. No comment.
@djeggnog
