Posts by djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

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djeggnog

djeggnog wrote:

I believe what the Bible says in its entirety, which is my choice.

@waton8 wrote:

Let us test that, given your superior spirituality:

Do you believe Jesus' end time prophecies in [Matt]. 24, 25, especially 24: 34,( this generation will not pass away until all these things are fulfilled?) and 25:26? ( Goats depart into everlasting cutting off--sheep into everlasting life [at ~Armageddon]). ?

I didn't say I possessed "superior spirituality"; you are the one making such a facetious suggestion about me (for some reason); nevertheless, my answer to your question is Yes.

Since the separation of sheep from goats doesn't begin until "immediately after" the great tribulation (Matt. 24:29), and Jesus specifically stated at Matt. 24:34 'this generation would not pass away until all these things [that which Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] have occurred,' including the tribulation, then it would seem that just as Joseph's contemporaries were still living when Joseph died, then some of Jesus spiritual brothers would still be alive after the tribulation. I'll elaborate on what I mean by this in a moment, but "What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?" is the topic the OP started, the topic that prompted me to post a response in the first place, and whatever your gripes with Bible doctrine or with Jehovah's Witnesses generally, I'd appreciate it if you don't ambush me again by going off-topic as you do with this question.

The fact that the current year is now 103 years removed from the year 1914 [at this writing, the year is 2017] does not help one do any more than speculate as to the year when the end will come. For example, we arrive at the year 2024 when counting 110 years forward from 1914, for Joseph's siblings, Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim (who were born in Egypt), as well as Joseph's nephews and nieces lived during Joseph's lifetime, that is to say, during Joseph's generation, making all of them contemporaries of Joseph.

Now it would be tantamount to trying to prove Jesus wrong when he indicated that no man knows "that day or the hour" should anyone attempt to calculate the year when "the end will come" (Matt. 24:14), even were Jehovah's Witnesses to do this(!), but I believe the end will come when the good news will have been satisfactorily preached in all the earth, which is something that Jesus also indicated. Furthermore, if Jesus did know 'the day or hour,' I suppose one could wonder why he would have lied about his not knowing, but I digress.

Berating spiritual-minded members of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, as many on here do, or other Christians for doing what they can to encourage Christians to stay awake and keep them from going to sleep when they need to be vigilant with a view to prayer is evidently the preoccupation of some, but remember just as the Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Heb. 7:28), Jehovah uses men today that are imperfect as well, who may at times have gotten it wrong and might even have said some zany things they we might wish they had not said. But I dare say that most of us here know more of what things the Bible teaches than do most people because of the work of such dedicated men and women, both past and present—including Jesus and Paul—that have been doing their best to 'keep watch over our souls.' (Heb. 13:17)

Firstly, "the term 'generation' as used by Jesus [at Matt. 24:34] refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." (wt95 11/1, p. 17, ¶6)

Secondly, Jesus compared the generation in his day to the one in Noah's day at [Matt. 24:37-39], it seems clear that the people in Noah's generation paralleled the people in "this generation" which began when the sign of Jesus' second coming became manifest in the year 1914. (I should point out here the use of the words "this generation" as they are used at Gen. 7:1.)

Thirdly, even though we are able to determine when "this generation" began, we are still unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."

Having said this, should we give consideration to what Exo. 1:6 says regarding the death of Joseph, Jacob's/Israel's son, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," then based on the age at which Joseph was when he died -- 110 -- then his contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers" and Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died.

Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Joseph dies in 1657 BC at the age of 110. Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that became manifest in 1914 (that is, those that had undertaken a spiritual rebirth by 1914) would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, which would include not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons and to his nephews and nieces that were alive when Joseph died, all of these being "that generation" (Exo. 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the composite sign, they all of them bearing witness to this "sign."

The clarification made in the article, "Holy Spirit's Role in the Outworking of Jehovah's Purpose," which might better be described as "increased light" instead of "new light," and has arguably been the cause of so much confusion is this:

[Jesus] evidently meant that the lives of the anointed who were on hand when the sign began to become evident in 1914 would overlap with the lives of other anointed ones who would see the start of the great tribulation. That generation had a beginning, and it surely will have an end." [w10 4/15, p. 10, ¶14)]

This article states that the lives of God's anointed ones that were alive when the sign began would overlap with the lives of those who would see the start of the great tribulation, this event being also a part of the sign.

Nobody knows the "day and hour" when the end will come; Jesus even said so (Matt. 24:36). The sign has both a beginning and an end, and so "immediately after the tribulation of those days," when "this generation" will have passed away, then the end—Armageddon—will come and "the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven," for it will be at this time that everyone in the world will discern "the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matt. 24:29, 30)

In referring to the way in which the word "generation" is used at Exo. 1:6, I pointed out that Joseph's generation would have been at least 110 years, because Gen. 50:22 indicates that Joseph lived for 110 years. But because Exo. 1:6 specifically says, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," it appears to be the case that the word "generation" includes those of Joseph's siblings that survived his death who were Joseph's contemporaries. Ten of Joseph's brothers witnessed events before Joseph's birth and at least two of those brothers lived after his death. So while Joseph's contemporaries were of various ages, they were viewed as being a part of "the Joseph generation."

Joseph's third oldest brother, Levi, who was born in 1772 BC (the year of Levi's birth could be 1773 BC!) before Joseph died in 1635 BC at the age of 137, some 22 years after Joseph's death, but I cannot add the additional 22 or 23 years of Levi's life to "the Joseph generation" since Joseph died in 1657 BC. Only Joseph's contemporaries would be Levi and his other siblings and their children who are alive before Joseph's death.

I take Jesus at his word when he said that "[c]oncerning that day and hour nobody knows" and that "[we] do not know on what day [he] is coming." (Matt. 24:36, 42) To go beyond Jesus' words is pure speculation. If you are living contemporaneous with someone else, it's true that your life would overlap theirs provided you were older than this other person or you survived the death of this other person.

Let me end with this "pop culture" note: Perhaps you are familiar with what I'll call "the Michael Jackson generation," who was born on August 29, 1958. This generation could be said to have begun with Michael's eldest sibling, Rebbie (Maureen Reilette "Rebbie" Jackson) born May 29, 1950, and all nine of his siblings (including Brandon Jackson, Marlon David Jackson's twin brother who was born on March 12, 1957, but died at birth, stillborn, and his half-sister Joh'Vonnie Jackson, the daughter of Michael's father, but whose mother is not Michael's) would all of them be a part of the Michael Jackson generation although Michael died on June 25, 2009, at age 50. This generation is now 60 years in length and counting since Michael's siblings were all his contemporaries, and their lives overlapped Michael's. Not that it could happen, but were any children to be born to Michael's parents, Joseph Walter "Joe" Jackson and Katherine Esther Scruse Jackson, after June 25, 2009 -- maybe Joe has another affair and another child! -- would not overlap the Michael Jackson generation so consequently these other "siblings" would not be contemporaries of Michael.

@djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

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djeggnog

djeggnog wrote:

d wrote: What does any of what I said about Armageddon have to do with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses? Your Splaine comment means what about Armageddon were he to die? There is no timeline; no one knows the day and hour, so your rambling aside, why does it matter to you what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Armageddon?

@waton8 wrote:

The timeline published has everything to do with the GB. David had his chart. according to wt publications, the anointed will not survive the onset of the GT. be gone by Armageddon, they will have to, to fight in it, as bible-predicted. Were David to die, it would [leave] Linda a widow, a [classy] lady. WT Armageddon teachings matter to me, because I was duped to teach falsehoods about it, and too much collateral damage is predicted about it, with precision strikes like passover in Egypt claimed as possible. angelically.

How were you duped to teach falsehoods about Armageddon? If there was a time since you've been adult when you believed something to be true, something that upon being presented with convincing evidence to the contrary you no longer believe to be true, how were you deceived? I suppose you would claim that you were "duped" as a child by school teachers into believing, right on into your adult years, for example, that Pluto was a planet until August 23, 2006, when the IAU (International Astronomical Union) decidedly voted in the Prague to strip Pluto of its status as a planet.

For some 76 years—from February 18, 1930, until August 23, 2006—school teachers were complicit around the globe for teaching what could be described as a falsehood about Pluto's being the ninth planet in our solar system.

Do you also feel as if these school teachers lied to you, misled you, deceived you and made you their dupe with regard to Pluto, making you as guilty as they are in lying, misleading and deceiving others to believe Pluto was a planet until this view of its status changed, even as Jehovah's Witnesses had speculated for some 60 years about the generation that would contemporaries of the composite sign would not pass away until Armageddon comes has changed with respect to Jesus' use of the word "generation" at Matt. 25:34, making you guilty of lying, misleading and deceiving others into believing that what Jesus had in mind was the generation living in 1914?

What "collateral damage" was involved in your making an adjustment in what you've called here "WT Armageddon teachings" when our understanding of the word "generation" changed? Was it the same "collateral damage" that was involved when the world made an adjustment in their view of Pluto when it was stripped by the IAU of its status as a planet?

Do you perhaps feel a "prediction" was made by the IAU on February 18, 1930, about Pluto, so that whatever the criteria for recognition of a planet as such may be, teachers ought not to have abandoned the falsehood they inaccurately taught for some 76 years about Pluto? Do you feel a prediction was made by Jehovah's Witnesses about Armageddon so that whatever their current understanding of what Jesus implied at Matt. 24:34, they ought not to abandon the falsehood they inaccurately taught for 60 years what they had speculated about the 1914 generation? If you answer "yes" to either question, how do you conclude this to have been a prediction? Moreover, how does the adjustment that Jehovah's Witnesses made in 2010 relate to what occurred on the Passover, which preceded the exodus of God's people from Egypt?

Again, the change in "definition" for "generation" was made after 80 years came and went. It was made out of necessity. The change in definition does not take away from the fact that what was taught up until the time of that change was indeed false.

Between February 18, 1930, and August 23, 2006, school teachers worldwide were teaching that Pluto was the ninth planet in our solar system. Would you say that this a case of false teaching on the part of these teachers during this period in view of what occurred some 76 years on August 23, 2006, when the IAU (International Astronomical Union) vote in the Prague stripped Pluto of its status as a planet? If not, then would you say that after August 23, 2006, that Pluto should still be regarded as a planet? If so, how can you expect these teachers to know before August 23, 2006, that Pluto wasn't a planet?

The point I'm making here (in the event you just don't get it) is that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot possibly know in advance things that they do not know, and even though we may have speculated as to the meaning of "this generation" at Matthew 24:34, so what? Now we know what "this generation" does not mean, but this does not mean, and should not mean, that we ignore these words and stop trying to figure out what Jesus had in mind when he used these words.

Not many Jehovah's Witnesses today are aware that we had speculated almost 60 years before this Watchtower article appeared in 2010 that Jesus may have been referring to his anointed followers as contemporaries of the sign, whose lives may overlap during the generation of the sign that began in 1914. With this understanding, there is no reason that anyone should be attempting to force two, three or even four generations into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," which is only one generation, the one that began in 1914 and ends with the great tribulation.

Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that were born or became manifest in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, these contemporaries including not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died, they being "all that generation" (Exo. 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond in a similar fashion to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign as all of them could bear witness to the composite sign that became manifest in 1914.

This is what our latest understanding of Jesus' words at Matt. 24:34 is today. You don't have to agree with us; Christendom doesn't agree with us either and could hardly care what it is we think Jesus' words to mean. If you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, when why should you care what we think Jesus' words to mean?

If anything that Jehovah's Witness are teaching today turns out to not be the same thing that we teach 20 years from now, then what we are teaching right now cannot be the truth, but we know this. For many years, there were teachers that taught kids in school that Pluto was a planet, and after 76 years of teaching that Pluto was a planet, it turned out that Pluto was not a planet, so what these teachers had taught for 76 years wasn't the truth, even though every one of them believed Pluto to have been the ninth planet in our solar system.

Just as these teachers got over it, likewise, when Jehovah's Witnesses learn that something that they are teaching today is in error, you can be sure that 20 years from now, they will have made an adjustment in not teaching that error since we have no problem admitting when we are wrong. We got over the fact that we understood "this generation" to mean one thing in 1995, and something else in 2008 when an adjustment was made in our understanding, and then again in 2010 when another adjustment was made.

It was discerned in 2010 that the anointed would be contemporaries of the generation whose lives would overlap the lives of those that would see the beginning of the composite sign and those that would see the end, including the great tribulation. We got over it, and those that didn't get it, either didn't or didn't care. For the most part, it is only those that are former Jehovah's Witnesses for whom this change in 2010 is such a problem, but these folks are as silly to be concerned about what we do as you would be if you were to be concerned about what a Girl's Scout troop in your city to which you never belonged is doing to up the sale of cookies. It's none of your business what we teach in this regard, and you really should take the position of the Catholics and the Baptists and the Lutherans and don't pay Jehovah's Witnesses any mind.

@djeggnog wrote:

d wrote: What "Rapture"? There will be no Rapture,

@waton8 wrote:

"jws hate using precise terms if they can distinguish from BTG, common wording, so: "called to their reward", gathered to heaven. instant 1st resurrection at death. better?

No; the Bible doesn't support the doctrine of the Rapture. This doesn't mean you cannot suggest otherwise. 😊

@djeggnog wrote:

d wrote: Why 2075? ls this a joke? ---

@waton8 wrote:

Of course the overlapping generation is a joke, and David said that there probably are longer living anointed than Freddy Franz. FF "served" from before 1914 to 1992. > 78 years. add that to 1992 ( another freddy-like partaker overlapping),- gives you > 2070. allowing time for the departure (rapture), longer lives, and the GT prelude, that gives you the 2075 estimate. a nice anniversary for another wt failure.I

Look: The point I'm making here (in the event you just don't get it) is that Jehovah's Witnesses cannot possibly know in advance things that they do not know, and even though we did speculate in the past what Jesus meant at Matt. 24:34 by this generation," so what? We now know what "this generation" does NOT mean, but this doesn't mean, and, in my opinion, shouldn't mean, that we ignore these words and stop trying to figure out what Jesus had in mind when he used them.

Not many Jehovah's Witnesses today are aware that we had speculated almost 60 years before this Watchtower article appeared in 2010 that Jesus may have been referring to his anointed followers as contemporaries of the sign, whose lives may overlap during the generation of the sign that began in 1914. With this understanding, there is no reason that anyone should be attempting to force two, three or even four generations into becoming a single generation since Jesus specifically spoke of "this generation," as in ONE generation, which is the one that we believe began in 1914 and ends with the great tribulation.

Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous with the "sign" that were born or became manifest in 1914 would correspond to those that became contemporaries of Joseph at his birth, these contemporaries including not only Joseph's 11 brothers, but to Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died, they being "all that generation" (Exodus 1:6). Thus, these contemporaries of Joseph's generation would correspond in a similar fashion to Jesus' anointed brothers, who from 1914 until now were all contemporaries of the sign as all of them could bear witness to the composite sign that became manifest in 1914.

This is what the latest understanding of Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 among Jehovah's Witnessew is today. You don't have to agree with us; Christendom doesn't agree with us either and could hardly care what it is we think Jesus' words to mean. If you are not one of Jehovah's Witnesses, when why should you care what we think Jesus' words to mean, @waton8?

Just as these teachers that erroneously used "My Very Educated Mother Just Sent Us Nine Pizzas" in support of the taught the Pluto-is-the-ninth-planet-in-our-solar-system "doctrine" got over it and are now teaching "My Very Elderly Mother Just Sits Up Nights," likewise, when Jehovah's Witnesses learn that something that they are teaching today is in error, you can be sure that 20 years from now, they will have made an adjustment in not teaching that error since we have no problem admitting when we are wrong. We got over the fact that we understood "this generation" to mean one thing in 1995, and something else in 2008 when an adjustment was made in our understanding; and in 2010 we have again done so when another adjustment needed to be made.

It was discerned in 2010 that the anointed would be contemporaries of the generation whose lives would overlap the lives of those that would see the beginning of the composite sign and those that would see the end, including the great tribulation. We got over it, and those that didn't get it, either didn't or didn't care. For the most part, it is only those that are former Jehovah's Witnesses for whom this change in 2010 is such a problem, but these folks are as silly to be concerned about what we believe and teach as Jehovah's Witnesses as you would be if you were to express concerned over what a Girl's Scout troop in your city to which you either do not belong or never belonged is doing to increase the sale of their peanut butter sandwich cookies, Do-Si-Dos.

It's none of your business what Jehovah's Witnesses teach in this regard, and you really should take the position of the Catholics and the Baptists and the Lutherans and don't pay what Jehovah's Witnesses teach any mind. Our teaching on "overlapping generations" is not about two or more generations, but is about the generation that began in 1914 and their contemporaries whose lives intersected OR OVERLAPPED before Armageddon when the conclusion of this system of things will have come to an end, and you don't get a vote on what Jehovah's Witnesses teach.

Let me say here in a vernacular with which you may or may not be familiar, I'm not at all concerned with your ideas or with what you might opine on what Jehovah's Witnesses teach and so "you need to step": What things Jehovah's Witnesses teach is not your business and should not, in my opinion, be your concern, just as what things you opine and teach is none of my business. You're entitled as much as I to choose whatever it is you choose to believe and to teach others accordingly (I get it!), but what you don't get to do is upbraid me for the choices I make just as I don't come to this resource to upbraid you for your choices. I truly respect your right to believe whatever you wish.

I could jokingly tell you to "go pound sand," not disparagingly, but as an expression of my disdain for your daring to inject yourself into my prerogative as one of Jehovah's Witnesses to believe what I want. However, I would never presume to inject myself into what you believe Matt. 24:34 means for, as I've said already, you're entitled to believe whatever it is you choose to believe. Were we not using JWN (or JWC), I could just as well tell you to "go pound sand," meaning "get lost." 😊

@djeggnog wrote:

d: I believe what the Bible says in its entirety, which is my choice.

@waton8 wrote:

A choice that hopefully will not be final, because, while the bible is the basis for our discussion, it is not believable. My spirituality is beyond belief in ancient, outdated writings, that have such a tenuous connection to reality. Example: Gen 1:1 The Earth was not created at the beginning, Gen. 9: there was no flood killing all, cresting above Everest, ever. -------

Creation, is too grandiose, majestic to be explained , understood by these stale stories, kindergarten reading level

Your spirituality aside, do you reject the scientific conclusion that our universe had at some time in the past been close to a singular state of infinitely small size and infinite density? Cosmologists like Lowell and Linde regard this singularity to be an intractable problem: If the universe had a beginning, so did Planet Earth. At Job 38:4, Jehovah told Job that he "founded the earth," but the very fact that we exist on this planet defies the second law of thermodynamics. Entropy is evidence of a Creator since there is absolutely no way the highly ordered physical and biological systems in which we thrive came to exist on their own. There is manifest no decay in any of these systems because of Jehovah.

While today Mt. Everest is a 29,035 foot (8,848 meter) high mountain, it's obvious that fifteen cubits or 22 feet of flood water would have been enough to 'overwhelm the earth' (Gen. 7:19) had Everest been as tall as it is today back in 2370 BC. But what if along with the added weight of the flood waters came a shifting of the earth's crust causing new mountains to emerge and existing mountains like Everest to rise to higher heights? I only know what the Bible says that "all of the tall mountains … came to be covered" by those waters, and while you do not, I believe what the Bible says.

It sounds "looney tunes" to me that that there are some Christian denominations that believe as you do, that the world will yet witness millions of Christians floating up toward the heavens and being caught up in the sky in a rapture, which event will be accompanied by automobile accidents, train derailments and plane crashes occurring all over the world followed by the confirmation of a seven-year treaty supposedly based on Daniel 9:24-27?

@djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

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djeggnog

@djeggnog wrote:

the wine that symbolizes Jesus' blood was drank along with the unleavened bread (crackers) eaten by his anointed followers, so if

@waton5 wrote:

djeggnog: before you question other's "spiritual maturity", please check you own!

In my mind, your spiritual maturlty, or the lack thereof, isn't in doubt! You may disagree with me and that's ok, but you sound spiritually immature to me and so I have opined.

@waton5

In Jesus' presence, there were no anointed followers eating crackers (with the sauce of the lamb stew.), they still had the earthly hope, (read the full account of Acts 1:6-8 cited in par. 8 of this week's wt study. ) and

ok 😊

@waton5

Yes wt teaches that satan, and angels had to use animals to communicate with humans, but that is at the child's level of Little Red Riding Hood and the wolf. You cant be serious to base your life on tales like that?

I think "had to" is a stretch; according to the Bible, the use of animals (the serpent and the ass) were used as spirit mediums in those two accounts I mentioned in a previous post. Not everyone rejects the Bible or portions thereof as you do; evidently you accept the fact that Jesus had followers, but reject that they were, in fact, anointed when they observed the Lord's Evening Meal, which is your choice. I believe what the Bible says in its entirety, which is my choice.

@djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

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djeggnog

@djeggnog wrote:

Most Jehovah's Witnesses believe Armageddon is around the proverbial corner,

@waton5 wrote:

djeggnog: If Armageddon would be just around the corner, the GT would be in full progress (according to wt current timeline, David Splaine et al) and therefore,

What does any of what I said about Armageddon have to do with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses? Your Splaine comment means what about Armageddon were he to die? There is no timeline; no one knows the day and hour, so your rambling aside, why does it matter to you what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Armageddon?

Some religious organizations, like Catholics, teach a trinity doctrine and it has no effect on anyone that thinks this doctrine is as absurd as Armageddon, so what difference does it make to you what other religious organizations believe or think when you have no responsibility for their beliefs or why they believe them?

@waton5

There would be no genuine anointed left on Earth, to take the emblems, because the Rapture having already taken place, the immortal anointed would be already in battle gear lined up with the heavenly armies to smite the evildoers like us on JWN.

What "Rapture"? There will be no Rapture, but when Armageddon commences, the observance of the Memorial will have ended since, as you said, all of the anointed will by then already be living in heaven.

@waton5

relax, the wait can last to 2075,

Why 2075? ls this a joke that has it's genesis in the belief that Armageddon would occur in 1975? This wrong idea was based on the desire that, despite what Jesus had said about the day and hour not being known, it might coincide with the 6,000 year milestone with respect to the Bibles reckoning of man's history had been reached, but this belief was something hoped and not held dogmatically (as I trust your mention of "2075" is also your hope).

@djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

.

djeggnog

@waton5

If you [partake on] a personal level, it would be agreeing with wt's interpretation of the talking snake story, many partake at home, because they have other beliefs. If you think it is just a delayed april-fool day's prank? that would be your choice.

What "talking snake story"? Jehovah's Witnesses teach the Bible's account of how an angelic being used a serpent (or "snake") as a medium through which he spoke ventriloquially to Eve, even as we teach the Bible's account of how an angelic being used an ass as a medium through which he spoke ventriloquially to Balaam.

If one that should partake cannot attend a Memorial, he or she can request that the emblems be provided and offered to he or she elsewhere, e.g., at a hospital or at their home.

@waton5

PS:*** affirming that you believe in the talking snake story, and the followup- eve, adam- Jesus- paradise should be enough to question your sane analytical faculties,

I would have to question your spiritual maturity here in discussing spiritual matters that you clearly do not comprehend.

@djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

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djeggnog

@Finkelstein22

No the elders there would just think [you're] nuts.

I've seen this myself numerous times and the Elders just carry on shaking their heads.

Maybe some of the elders to whom you refer would, but, personally, I wouldn't shake my head; I'd be amused over someone mistakenly partaking of the emblems.

@Finkelstein22

By the way this assertion is supported by the WTS leaders themselves.

Really!? To what "assertion" are you referring? Regarding an individual that unworthily partakes of the Memorial emblems as being crazy? To which of these "WTS leaders" do you refer? If you cannot prove the assertion you just made here, why cast shade on anyone?

@Finkelstein22

Now if you were to place 6 people in each row partaking and by the time the wine and bread is being passed to the back rows and there isn't any bread and wine to pass .

........now that would be funny

Yes, I suppose this scenario could be funny, but what would be a riot is if we could actually run out of matzoth crackers and/or Chianti (or Burgundy) wine.

The Passover was not a type of the Memorial, since the blood of the lamb wasn't eaten whereas the wine that symbolizes Jesus' blood was drank along with the unleavened bread (crackers) eaten by his anointed followers, so if the "6 people in each row" should partake of the crackers and the wine, their doing so could in no way have the Passover as a rationale.

Furthermore, if these people are convinced that they should partake, why shouldn't they?

@djeggnog

28

What will happen if someone partake the wine and bread at memorial? Should we all do that?

by UBM101 in

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djeggnog

@UBM10132

Just a naughty thought, I mean what if we all go and do that? Would everyone freak out like Armageddon is around the corner?

I realize the notion of "Jehovah's day" or Armageddon—when God's son, his adopted sons as well as the angels, come to execute God's judgment upon the unbelieving nations—is misunderstood by many folks, but no one among Jehovah's Witnesses, except, of course, those who are yet immature, learning, but never able to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth about Armageddon or other scriptural teachings would go berserk should anyone NOT born from God, anyone NOT born again, NOT counted worthy to eat of the loaf or to drink of the cup do so unworthily.

The spiritually mature among Jehovah's Witnesses would recognize such an individual as being guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord by partaking of these emblems, but none would "freak out" as you put it.

Most Jehovah's Witnesses believe Armageddon is around the proverbial corner, but I'm sure there are some among us that are waiting on a sign of the cross to appear in heaven (just joking), so should you and others of this mindset "go and do that" at a Memorial of Christ's Death where I happen to be in attendance, I would be somewhat amused over the apparent misunderstanding, even if this were just a juvenile stunt.

Now I suppose there would be some among Jehovah's Witnesses that might become judgmental over what you would regard as 'naughtiness," over the very idea that someone could attend this ceremonial occasional at their Kingdom Hall and be so disrespectful as to "go and do that" as if such a mistake were an personal insult, but to partake of the emblems unworthily is just a mistake, an error, and nothing more, since it's not like anyone that should partake unworthily would force Jehovah to give to that person a new birth, and as such persons grow in accurate knowledge, they will become less judgmental and perhaps be more forgiving of others when they err.

As Paul advised, "a man [or woman must] approve himself [or herself] after scrutiny"; no one as the right to judge another's decision to eat and drink, for "he [or she] that eats and drinks eats and drinks judgment against himself [or herself]." (1 Cor. 11:27-29)

@djeggnog

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

djeggnog

@djeggnog wrote:

I spoke in opposition to your view of the [date] when Nisan 14 occurs in 2017. I don't recall saying anything to you here about "worshipping according to Bible truth"; you made this up.

Let me say again, I don't recall saying anything to you here about "worshipping according to Bible truth."

@David_Jay

First of all, speaking "in opposition" is presenting an argument. If you had no desire to do this, you would have never posted anything "in opposition to your view of the dats [sic] when Nisan 14 occurs." Arguing is "expressing opposing views in an exchange" or "to speak in opposition of another's view."

This you were clearly doing to begin with. The reason you replied now is because you had no answer to give me. You had immediate answers for others, but you could not answer mine right away. So you took the time to research it.

I have been given 168 hours each week to carry out the various tasks I've taken on, which includes broadcasting and production work and study (I'm currently in school); I also work part time and I also need to sleep. In fact, all of such "tasks" consume much of the time I'm allotted each week. Reading the posts in this and other threads is a low-priority task and, as an a academic, I have no need to conduct any research before responding to any of your posts, but it does take additional time from more important tasks to engage in social media exchanges (like this one).

I never argued with you, nor posited any argument; our opinions differ on the date that corresponds with Nisan 14 on the Hebrew calendar, and since I fully accept that your opinion on this matter differs from mine, your allegation rings rather hollow, but ok.

@David_Jay

Finding you could not argue against the facts I presented, in order to save face you finally came back and now claim that you just don't have an "interest" in the subject any longer.

And I was not saying that you personally made a claim about "worshipping according to Bible truth." That is the teaching of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. I was speaking against their claim. If the Memorial was really taking place on Nisan 14, the Full Moon would not have risen a day earlier.

In an earlier post, I fully comprehended this as being your opinion; I just don't agree with your opinion.

@David_Jay

And if you do not agree that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach according to Bible truth, then you are telling us that you don't believe what your religion teaches.

I don't recall saying anything to you here about "worshipping according to Bible truth," and your continued repetition of this false allegation will not change this fact.

@David_Jay

But on the other hand, if you do agree that the witnesses teach according to Bible truth, then you have just demonstrated that you cannot explain the point I countered with.

How do you figure?

@David_Jay

The solution is simple. Either the Witnesses are wrong and that is why you couldn't give an answer, or the Witnesses are right but you are bad at explaining what they really teach.

Either way, no one should pay further attention to you. If the religion is false, who wants to listen to you--a member of a false religion? If the religion is true, who wants to listen to you--a bad example and bad teacher of life saving truths.

ok; perhaps you're right. 😊

@David_Jay

We Jews are still celebrating the Passover for a few more days yet. Part of this celebration is to declare liberty to those enslaved even today. People can be enslaved by false religions and even bad teachers of truth. Whatever happens to be the case with you, what kind of Jew would I be and what kind of liberty could I declare if I did not speak up against the tyranny of falsehood?

I don't know, not do I care to give you a grade.

@David_Jay

Remember how Elijah challenged the false prophets of Baal? He proved their worship was false since they could not get Baal to ignite their sacrifice. If your worship of Jehovah were true, there would be no question you could not answer. You would not merely say you have no interest. You would have the answer immediately, as fire from Jehovah ignited Elijah's offering. Is not the "sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of our lips" greater than the offerings of the Jews? (Hebrews 13:15)

If by "fruit of lips" you refer to prayer, why?

@David_Jay

Is not the spirit of God with you? Why are your lips not ignited with the flame of the spirit, the power from Jehovah that should light your offering of "the fruit of our lips"? Why no answer after all this time?

"After all this time"? To what time do you refer? Do you imagine I owed you an earlier response or any response at all? You really should not feel I have such a debt to you; I don't.

@David_Jay

That is because you are like the prophets of Baal. You do not worship Jehovah. You claim to and make an idol of his name, but you fail to offer the 'sacrifice of praise...the fruit of lips.' Jehovah cannot fail, cannot offer imprecise dates for the Memorial, nor be powerless to give one of his true worshippers the ability to light their "[sacrifice] of praise."

I find this statement of yours to be incoherent.

@David_Jay

Therefore you are like the prophets of Baal, a worshiper not of the God of Abraham but of a false idol that enslaves people to the imprecise, imperfect direction of fallible men who run the organization that offered the Memorial on the wrong day.

Passover is a call to end all types of slavery. So if you wish to offer your words that enslave people to your false religion, in the spirit of Passover I declare you another false teacher like Jannes and Jambres. And I declare all who have left the Jehovah's Witnesses freed from the tyranny of falsehood, from slavery to lies.

Be gone, you false representative of the God of Abraham. You are but a worshiper of a dungy idol you call "Jehovah" but is anything but!

I enjoyed our exchange here and find your comments in this thread to have been "exhausting" (for lack of a better word), but this worshipper of Jehovah is not going anywhere.

@djeggnog

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

djeggnog

@David_Jay

To all onlookers here it is clear you are not producing any empirical evidence to contradict the fact that according to the moon's phases the middle of Nisan has passed.

No, I've no interest in arguing with you over anything; you have every

@David_Jay

This is the most important yearly event for Jehovah's Witnesses. With all due respect, it speaks against the claim of worshipping according to Bible truth when you claim that tonight marks the 14th of Nissan and it is clearly visible that the Full Moon waxed last night. If you cannot make your arguments coincide with what can truly be seen by all humans worldwide when looking up in the sky, your claims are false.

I spoke in opposition to your view of the dats when Nisan 14 occurs in 2017. I don't recall saying anything to you here about "worshipping according to Bible truth"; you made this up. I trust that you were in invigorated by your religious activities with respect to Passover and I enjoyed the brief exchange I had with you here.

@djeggnog

103

What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?

by Phizzy in

mrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..

djeggnog

@djeggnog wrote:

You are evidently of the mistaken view that Jehovah's Witnesses do not and are required to not speak to disfellowshipped persons. You are free to believe what you wish, but many spiritually-mature persons (e.g., elders and their wives) have conversations with disfellowshipped persons. I suppose it's possible that many of the things you believe to be true are not true at all.

@Anders Andersen wrote:

Normally, a close relative would not be disfellowshipped for associating with a disfellowshipped person unless there is spiritual association or an effort made to justify or excuse the wrongful course." Pay Attention to Yourselves and all the Flock p.103

Conclusion: anyone having 'spiritual association' - which includes discussions on Biblical and religious topics - with a DFed person, set himself up to be DFed too.

Wt literature even claims saying 'hello' to a DFed person is an act of disobedience to God.

I'm also quite sure there has been at least one reference in JW literature that not even elders are to talk to DFed person unless the body of elders sent them on a mission, for example to try and reactivate the DFed person.

You would appear to be under the mistaken impression that you know the guidelines we publish, which those of us with spiritual qualifications follow, better then we ourselves do; you come off to me as someone that is spiritually immature, someone that for whatever reason thinks these guidelines in our literature is akin to the Law of Moses because your faith based on your spiritual comprehension of Christian principles bespeaks a weak conscience just as the man who is stumbled upon observing me eating food that had previously been offered in sacrifice to an idol. (1 Cor. 8:7-11)

What I just said here defiles your conscience because you think you know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe when it would be more accurate to state that what you know is what you believe to be true about what we believe. Let me disabuse you of the notion that you know what Jehovah's Witnesses believe because you only think you know.

There are people that have been associated with Jehovah's Witnesses for 20, 30, 40 years that have themselves been baptized, but are still drinking milk and talk just like you about "the rules" that Jehovah's Witnesses are obliged to follow. However, not all Jehovah's Witnesses drink milk; some of us eat meat now for "solid food belongs to mature people." (Heb. 5:14)

Our publications are written for both the mature and the immature, but it doesn't stumble me nor do I cower in fear when I see someone that has been disfellowshipped at a supermarket, for example, that hasn't been attending meetings. I want to find out how he or she is doing and whether he or she is attending meetings elsewhere and considering coming back. Some do attend some of the meetings elsewhere due to embarrassment they would feel around others at their local Kingdom Hall and some have stopped attending altogether.

But if the conscience of someone weak in their faith is at that supermarket with me (like you, for example), I'm going to ditch you (if I can) in order to have a quick conversation with the disfellowshipped person because I don't wish to stumble you when my desire is to encourage someone in any way I can with a view to building that person's faith, which may be just as weak as yours.

Hopefully, you will think about this post of mine before citing "the milk" you read in our publications to someone spiritually mature as if you understood what you read in them to apply equally to all Jehovah's Witnesses.

@Anders Andersen

And here you are saying something like 'Elders do it so I can disobey Gods guidance too!'

Actually, I would never say such a thing, ever.

@Anders Andersen

Geez you don't even know the rules of your own cult.

None of Jehovah's Witnesses are members of any cult. I think you define "cult" differently than do I. We don't follow a human leader, nor does our worship devolve into some ritual; we didn't branch off from any church as is often the case in many cults today. We don't have rules, per se; what we have is Bible trained consciences that are trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

@djeggnog