Posts by Justin

15

A dilemma regarding the 144,000

by Five Gospels in

jw
friends

some of the recent posts regarding the "anointed" got me thinking about some of the characters that i have met, or have known about, professing membership among this elite class of people.. one particular character i know of, even today espousing some, shall we say, interesting viewpoints on matters, had an even more interesting past.

it seems that some years ago (c. 1970's) a typically subdued but otherwise ordinary christian meeting was being closed with a prayer at a small kingdom hall in the north eastern usa when it was suddenly disrupted by this individual (even then professing to be anointed) assaulting his wife at the rear of the hall!

he was pretty much disfellowshiped on the spot for his indiscretion.

Justin

Moxy is correct about the JW idea of free will, that there are things which Jehovah chooses not to know.

In the JW teaching, those with the heavenly hope are both declared righteous and spirit-begotten. If someone is declared righteous, they have righteousness imputed to them or credited to their account. They may be disfellowshipped, but only Jehovah can remove that righteous standing which he has given them. If they repent before he does so, they are received back as anointed ones. This is the way I understood it as a JW.

Why doesn't he wait until their death to determine who is chosen and who is not? Because there is something about the spirit-begotten condition that enables them to develop toward the goal which He has in mind for them. They cannot develop as "new creatures" unless they already are such in some sense while still in the flesh. The new life must begin here and now, and if they fail, then they become like an aborted fetus. The "sealing" of the 144,000 is not when they are first chosen, but when God decides that they have been fully tested and tried (whether at or before death is not clear). So while the number is supposedly full at the present time, all the individuals that will finally make up that number have not been sealed.

I am only saying that the system seems logical within itself. Of course, with anything, one can always ask why God does something in one way and not in another.

What is putting a strain on the belief system now is the fact that, with the passage of time, it seems that so many have proven unfaithful and have needed to be replaced. Every "replacement" increases the strain. It keeps the anointed class on earth for the final showdown, but at the same time makes it appear that such ones have been called to a hope which is practically unattainable.

21

Is Anyone a Pantheist ?

by LucidSky in

jw
friends

is anyone a pantheist ?.

in my search for the meaning of life, it has been only a month or two since i've actually become agnostic.

my reason for the final rejection of christianity was that i could not believe a god of love, justice and wisdom would create a world that along with life/pleasure would also foster death/suffering for seemingly infinite numbers of innocent and not-so-innocent beings.

Justin

Pantheism is the belief that God and the world (the cosmos) are identical. It's not acceptable from a Christian standpoint. There is another belief known as "panentheism," which is the belief that God is in the world or the world is in God. This can be illustrated by fish in a body of water; the fish represent creatures and the water represents God. Philosophically speaking, God would be the Ground of Being.

Many who claim to believe in a personal God have ideas of God which could really be termed "anthropomorphic" - from the Greek "anthropos" - man or human being. That is, their idea of God is so restricted that it is as if they are worshipping a humanoid. In the JW/Bible Student tradition this was true to the extent that it was at one time speculated that God lived in the constellation of the Pleiades.

Some of the Bible writers did have a more elevated view of God. Paul is reported as saying, "in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:28) The early Church Fathers attempted to harmonize a philsophical view of God with the Bible, and took anthropomorphic representations of God to be symbolical. They concluded that, among other attributes, God is omnipresent - everywhere present - whereas the WT, with its anthropomorphic tendencies, cannot accept this. This does not mean that God is not also personal, but God does not have the limitations of human personality.

So what is the relevance here with regards to our "recovery" from a cult? It's this: We have to be willing to step out and take the middle ground if we do not wish to be permanently enmeshed in a conflict of extremes. Otherwise, the battle of the atheists vs. the fundamentalists will continue. It's not enough to compare the teachings of the WT with the Bible in and of itself. There's a whole history of interpretation of the biblical text. There has always been an interaction between the text and a given community, both with the Jewish and the various Christian communities. It's not enough to ask, "Is that really in the Bible," but: "Is this a better explanation of the biblical text than another explanation?"

Taking the middle ground opens us up to attack from both extremes, but we'd better do it if we want a conceptual framework in which to operate. So we can't just study the Bible. We need to study the Fathers and the theologians throughout the ages of different traditions.

The same is true with the issue of biblical inerrancy. Let the atheists and the fundamentalists hammer away at each other. There are critical scholars who have noted discrepancies in the biblical text, and have used these to come to edifying conclusions which would have never been possible if it had not been realized that various writers wrote from different standpoints. Faith in God and the biblical message was maintained, not jettisioned. Keep seeking, for "they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being." (Acts 17:27-28)

12

JW Anointed Life

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i am finding sme of the threads about jw anointed rather interesting, humorous, and some unfactual, or maybe better stated narrow (limited?

) in their views.

rather than posting this to several threads, i thought i would make a single new thread.. having lived the jw 'anointed' life, here are some things i found to be true, some interesting, and some not so exciting:.

Justin

I think something which confuses the whole issue is the FDS concept. Those who have a heavenly hope should not confuse their calling with the WT teaching about the "faithful and discreet slave." As has been observed in many posts, individual anointed ones having nothing to do with acting as the "slave" - this in reality is the role of the Governing Body and is merely attributed to the entire anointed class. This doesn't mean that people can't use their abilities to help others achieve spiritual understanding within their own spheres of influence, whether they are anointed or OS, but a person cannot afford to get caught up into a delusion of being the channel to feed the "sheep". Whatever role the Governing Body has assumed in this regard, the actual reigning as kings and priests with Christ will only be fulfilled in the resurrection. So it's important to distinguish the anointing from the FDS business, otherwise a person will become mentally confused and turn others off.

30

Anointed Experience #1 - Discerning the Body

by Amazing in

jw
friends

"thichi" asked in my previous post about some of the 'anointed' experiences i alluded to, especially those that i mentioned that were somewhat painful.

here is one such event that i have relayed before in shorter comments:.

i was an elder at the time, visiting in pennsylvania on business.

Justin

I don't know what they're looking for, but scripturally the "one loaf" represents BOTH Jesus' own fleshly body offered in sacrifice and his congregation of anointed body members. It has a dual significance. So perhaps the trick is that the anointed one whose status is being questioned is so concerned about their own standing in the BODY that they forget the Lord's own personal body. Of course, it's a cheap shot.

36

ANOINTED JEHOVAH WITNESS APOLOGIZES

by lotus in

jw
friends

dear people, i posted my first post on anointed witness has no doubt stating that i have the heavenly hope and was seeking others.

many of you responded and i read all your replies.

i am lonely in terms of knowing few other young anointed and being an active witness, so this makes me an oddity among you and in my cong.. mnay also wondered why i was on this website of ex-witness,.

Justin

If you truly believe you're one of the anointed, and still loyal to the organization, my only advice to you is to read Russell's STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES. They were written when the heavenly calling was still considered to be the general calling. You can't get them through the WT anymore, but you can order them through one of the Bible Student sites. For example, http//www.divineplan.org . And don't let any of the JWs know you're reading them! Hopefully, this will take the place of having other living anointed ones to associate with.

The WT doesn't want "young anointed" and you'd better get used to going it alone. You are "one born out of due time." (1 Cor. 15:8) Likewise, don't expect us to return to Egypt and live under old Pharaoh! We've already crossed the Red Sea.

38

Do the Witnesses "manipulate" recruits?

by refiners fire in

jw
friends

do they "mystically manipulate"people joining them?.

im inclined to say they dont.. they are almost unique in this.. practically every cult ive joined, i could recite a litany of manipulation techniques applied to me during my joining process.. the dubs study with people, systematically, unemotionally.. noone else does this in my experience.. people who join the dubs join under "intellectual conviction".. do you agree with this view or not??.

im most curious to hear opinions on this.

Justin

The method of indoctrination is the key. A JW study consists of answering the questions at the bottom of the page by finding the answers in the text. Usually specific words in the text match the words in the question, and the "answers" are highlighted with a marker and repeated verbatim. The student is giving the WT's answers to the WT's questions. They may begin their study by giving their own opinions, but then they get "rewarded" by giving the correct answers. This very method is continued as they attend meetings and prepare for those meetings. It takes longer to pull off than an emotional conversion, but once they're hooked, they are thoroughly indoctrinated.

It's like an old horse-and-buggy method compared to more sophisticated techniques, but it works.

14

Need help with Isa 66:6...need decent argument...

by TheApostleAK in

jw
friends

has anybody got a decent argument that defeats the wt argument that isa 66:6 in the septuagint contains the greek word naos in this scripture.. basically this is one of the arguments the wt uses to show the greek word naos can mean more than the sanctuary.. more info see the great crowd article of 1981.. help!.

from alan

Justin

The question does not make a lot of sense to me in view of the current controversy over whether or not the "great crowd" is located in the "naos" or the "hieron."

Isaiah 66:6 reads: "A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple [LXX - naos], a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies." Regardless of the historical or prophetic context of this statement, it is Jehovah's voice that comes from the temple. Wouldn't Jehovah's presence be expected to be represented in the Most Holy, and therefore in the naos? This has nothing to do with where the worshippers are located in the temple.

2

The Subterranean Decalogue

by Justin in

jw
friends

all students who wish to graduate to the surface will please recite:.

1. thou shalt not throw stones.. 2. thou shalt not use dynamite.. 3. thou shalt not yell in caves.. 4. thou shalt not get satan's attention.. 5. thou shalt not desire a surface existence before thine release.. 6. thou shalt not turn this into a mining operation.. 7. thou shalt not make unseemly noises in the dark.. 8. thou shalt keep thy mindshafts concealed.. 9. thou shalt obey thy taskmaster.. 10. thou shalt not feed the bats.

Justin

All students who wish to graduate to the surface will please recite:

1. Thou shalt not throw stones.

2. Thou shalt not use dynamite.

3. Thou shalt not yell in caves.

4. Thou shalt not get Satan's attention.

5. Thou shalt not desire a surface existence before thine release.

6. Thou shalt not turn this into a mining operation.

7. Thou shalt not make unseemly noises in the dark.

8. Thou shalt keep thy mindshafts concealed.

9. Thou shalt obey thy taskmaster.

10. Thou shalt not feed the bats.

13

Question about Bible Translations

by spender in

i've been looking for the past couple of days for a study bible with relatively un-biased commentary, and an accurate translation.

i'd also like to get the strongs concordance...is this a good idea?.

any opinions on bible translations you particularly like and why are appreciated.

Justin

It's worth getting Strong's Concordance because of the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries in the back. But you'll need to have a KJV just to look words up in Strong's. So you would go from whatever your primary translation is to the KJV to Strong's. There are also older Hebrew and Greek lexicons that have been keyed to Strong's, using the same numbering system as Strong did for his dictionaries.

16

what does grace mean to JHW?

by evangelist in

i would like to know what the grace of god mean to jhw, and why they try to work for something that is a gift and is free from god?.

maybe some one can help with this information.

Justin

ozzie,

What I meant is that JWs do not believe that any given individual has been predestinated from the foundation of the world to be saved. The JW belief is that God foresaw what kind of people he would save, or the class of people that would be saved, but did not assign anyone to salvation before they were even created or born. On the other hand, many Christian belief systems include this aspect as part of "grace," emphasizing that it has nothing to do with a person's efforts to be saved. When I said "No one believes" this, I was referring to JWs. Of course, there might be some who think they will survive Armageddon just because they are JWs (though, with the WT's constant browbeating I don't know how they could think so), but that's an entirely different matter from being predestined before the foundation of the world.

Justin