The question ultimately boils down to whether or not morality is inseperable from religious belief. While I would state that religion (generally) requires it, morality itself does not require one specific (or, indeed any) form of religionin order to be practiced. Stalin, Polpot and others didn't go to war because they were atheists, they did it because they were dicks.
corpusdei
JoinedPosts by corpusdei
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Would mankind be better off without religion today ? A topical debate .
by Finkelstein inthis is an interesting debate paneled by people representing both pro and con aspects of religion as a ideological concept in human sociality.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfix_e1qnbm.
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186
Questions From Thinkers
by Perry inhow do you explain david's graphic portrayal of jesus' death by crucifixion (psalm 22) 1000 years before christ lived?.
how do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) old testament prophecies were fulfilled in jesus christ?.
in what sense was jesus a "good man" if he was lying in his claim to be god?.
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186
Questions From Thinkers
by Perry inhow do you explain david's graphic portrayal of jesus' death by crucifixion (psalm 22) 1000 years before christ lived?.
how do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) old testament prophecies were fulfilled in jesus christ?.
in what sense was jesus a "good man" if he was lying in his claim to be god?.
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corpusdei
Part the Third
Is it absolutely true that "truth is not absolute" or only relatively true that "all things are relative?"
Huh?
What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible?
That the majority of the ones I've ever read seem to base their reliability on either unreliable sources or unreliable reasoning. Again, I don't consider the entire work to be fiction, but I don't count it any more historically accurate than any other religious text.
Have you ever considered the fact that Christianity is the only religion whose leader is said to have risen from the dead?
Um...... I can actually think of several right off the top of my head - Osiris (Egyptian), Shiva (Hindu), Odin (Norse), Inana (Sumerian). Give me awhile, I'm sure I can think of a few more.
Why don't non-believers refer to Jesus as the late Jesus Christ?
In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?
What do you make of all the anthropological studies indicating that even the most remote tribes show some sort of theological awareness?
What do you make of the sociology studies indicating an inverse ratio between IQ and religious belief? That's a serious question, by the way, and not me being snarky. Religion is fundamentally a way to explain the inexplicable. As we learn what actually goes on for something, the need for a divine explanation goes away. Case in point, we know now that lightning is a discharge of static electricity, therefore there's no longer a need to believe that it's the weapon of an angry god.
If every effect has a cause, then what or who caused the universe?
There are several theories (in the scientific sense of the word "theory", not in the sense that most people think of it), most of them generally understandable by people with brains much larger than mine and involving rather obscene amounts of math. The most satisfying explanation currently (as I understand it) is the big bang and big crunch, in which the universe cycles between explosion, expansion and collapse to a singularity. The nice men in the lab coats are still finding out new stuff, however, in their annoying insistence on not relying on "Well, God musta done it", so that might change. Stay tuned.
How do you explain the thousands of people who have experienced heaven or hell and have come back to tell us about it?
Either a) hysterical invention, b) outright lies, c) electrical misfiring in a brain that's suddenly gone into panic red-alert mode. I consider those accounts generally no more reliable than the guy in the sanitarium covering himself in peanut butter and believing himself to be Napoleon.
How do you explain the cosmological constant?
I'm not sure what relevance this question has on theology, and I'd have to dig back into a fair amount of astrophysics to get up to speed on it, but didn't that end up getting worked into dark matter/energy? I'd research this some more, but I frankly don't care enough to bother at this point unless I have to.
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Questions From Thinkers
by Perry inhow do you explain david's graphic portrayal of jesus' death by crucifixion (psalm 22) 1000 years before christ lived?.
how do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) old testament prophecies were fulfilled in jesus christ?.
in what sense was jesus a "good man" if he was lying in his claim to be god?.
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corpusdei
Part the Second
- How can something as small as a brain understand extremely complicated aspects of the universe, even though it is (supposedly) just a bunch of chemical reactions and electrical signals?
- But at the same time, this brain can’t create another brain like itself, so how can nature, that has no brain, create a brain?
- Why can't this brain even create a simple living twig?Why is the simple cell likened to the complexity of large functioning city by experts?This is one of those items that folks love to pop out when it comes to talking to atheists or skeptics, and it boils down to: "Look at this immense complexity, it proves that there's a designer!". Again, there's an assumption here that I feel a powerful need to point out. Opponents of evolution (and the biological complexity resulting from it) rarely seem to have a full grasp of what they're so opposed to. It's easy to look at the world and see it as a static thing, the world as we live in seems so unchangeable that the idea of a monkey evolving into man is ridiculous.
Here's a nifty, not so useless fact - did you know that the cauliflower as we know it didn't exist 300 years ago? Or that the strawberries you buy at the grocery store never originally existed in nature? These plants as we know them today are the result of intentional selective adaptation - turning a type of cabbage into a cauliflower, or breeding only those strains of strawberries that produce the largest berries. Another example - your average housecat is very ill-equipped to survive as a natural predator (no matter what kitty may think). Compared to wild (non-domesticated) cats, their jaws are too narrow and their immune systems aren't as capable. Again, these are changes brought about through intentional, selective adaptation by humans. Natural selection and adaptation occurs in much the same way, except that instead of humans guiding it, it's driven by the environment and the need for survival.
Now, we can see that amount of change in less than 1000 years of human history. What happens when you expand the timeline? Not 10,000 years, or even 1,000,000. Earth has existed for around 4.5 billion years. In that massive, near-incomprehensible span of time, the changes will be even more extravagant. The incredible complexity that we see in the world and in ourselves is a result of 4 and a half billion years of the most adaptable (and increasingly complex) life surviving.
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Questions From Thinkers
by Perry inhow do you explain david's graphic portrayal of jesus' death by crucifixion (psalm 22) 1000 years before christ lived?.
how do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) old testament prophecies were fulfilled in jesus christ?.
in what sense was jesus a "good man" if he was lying in his claim to be god?.
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corpusdei
Part the First
I'd like to answer the last one first, if you don't mind.
Is it wrong to ask such questions? Why?
Absolutely NOT! It isn't wrong by any means, in fact I heartily encourage you to do so. Ask the next question, then ask the next, then the next. Use your powers of reason, investigate the answer, test its internal logic. What so often happens is that people don't ask these questions, relying instead on the "Well, God musta done it" answer for everything. Keep asking questions, but don't be afraid to let the answer bring you to a better understanding of the world around you.
- How do you explain David's graphic portrayal of Jesus' death by crucifixion (Psalm 22) 1000 years before Christ lived?
- How do you account for the odds (1 in 10 to the 157th power) that even just 48 (of 300) Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus Christ?
- In what sense was Jesus a "good man" if He was lying in His claim to be God?If Jesus' resurrection was faked, why would twelve intelligent men (Jesus' disciples) have died for what they knew to be a lie?
- If the authorities stole Jesus' body, why? Why would they have perpetrated the very scenario that they most wanted to prevent?
- If Jesus merely resuscitated in the tomb, how did He deal with the Roman guard posted just outside its entrance?
- How can one realistically discount the testimony of over 500 witnesses to a living Jesus following His crucifixion (see 1 Corinthians 15:6)?I'm lumping these together because there are a couple of assumptions going on here that should be considered. First off is that the accounts of the fulfillment of prophesy as we read them today occurred exactly as described. Second, and more significantly, there's the assumption that the prophesies themselves as we read them today are exactly the same as when they were originally made.
Did you ever play the telephone game as a kid in school? Where you get all the kids together in a circle, whisper a phrase in the ear of the first one who turns around and whispers it in the ear of the next, and so on? By the time you get to the end of the circle, the end phrase is never what it originally was. Usually it's never even remotely close. Consider the fact that that level of perceptual distortion happens in the space of six or seven minutes, and then think about the bible. (Here's another experiment that you can try yourself - pick a phrase, go to babelfish and translate it from English to Spanish to German to French and then back to English. See if it reads the same.)
The bible as we have it isn't from the original texts. It's not even from a copy of the original texts. It's from a copy of a copy of a copy of a translation of a copy of a translation (etc). More than that, in the vast majority of cases, these copies and translations were done by those with a vested interest in maintaining the integrity of the religion (which is not the same as maintaining the integrity of the text, make no mistake about it).
Does that mean than I consider the entire bible a fabrication? Not necessarily, I believe that there's a seed of truth in some of the accounts. I do not, however, consider it an infallible, accurate historical record. I encourage you to consider why you don't believe that the universe was created from a golden egg hatched by Nyx, or plowed and fertilized by Enki (read the myths and you'll understand why I chuckled at that last bit). When you understand that then you'll be a step closer to understanding why I view the bible with the same skepticism.
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Awake 3/2012: YPA - Is It Wrong To Be Popular? (with running commentary)
by corpusdei inreading sizemik's post on this ypa article, i went back and actually read the article.
thought i'd actually put down the running commentary that was goung though my head with this thing.. young people ask: is it wrong to be popular?fill in the word that completes the following statement:.
it is ________ good to be popular.. a. always.
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corpusdei
Reading sizemik's post on this YPA article, I went back and actually read the article. Thought I'd actually put down the running commentary that was goung though my head with this thing.
YOUNG PEOPLE ASK: Is it wrong to be popular?
Fill in the word that completes the following statement:
It is ________ good to be popular.
A. always
B. sometimes
C. never
I've suddenly got that old Nada Surf song stuck in my head. "If you'll just listen to my plan - THE TEENAGE GUIDE TO POPULARITY!!!!"
THE correct answer is “B.” Why? Because to be popular simply means to be liked by a lot of people — and that’s not always wrong! The Bible foretold that Christians would be “a light of the nations” You know, Nero and the Romans tested that theory and found that using Christians as torches, while entertaining, just wasn't that practical and that people would be drawn to them. (Isaiah 42:6; Acts 13:47) In that sense, it can be said that Christians are popular. Well, considering that whole "light to the world" analogy is typically used to mean "We know better than you do. Follow our religion because yours is fake", I wouldn't say it makes Witnesses popular. I'd say it makes them pretentious prats.
Did you know? Jesus was popular. Yea, and look where it got him. Strung up next to a couple of criminals Even as a young person, he gained “favor with God and men.” (Luke 2:52) And the Bible says that when Jesus became an adult, “great crowds followed him from Galilee and Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from the other side of the Jordan.”—Matthew 4:25. Couldn't have been the fact that Jesus was running around "curing every sort of disease and every sort of infirmity", including "those faring badly, distressed with various diseases and torments, demon-possessed and epileptic and paralyzed persons" (Matthew 4:23, 24). Come on, while the Romans were doing really well in terms of health care in 30 A.D., illness was still typically attributed to divine annoyance and your best bet at anesthetic was to get drunk beforehand. And here Jesus is, running around curing paralyzed people. Painlessly. For free. Of course he was popular. Can you imagine the amount of followers he would have gotten if he had thought to offer boob jobs too?
Why was that proper? Because Jesus wasn’t seeking glory or pursuing popularity, and he wasn’t desperate for others’ approval. Jesus simply did what was right — a stance that sometimes brought him favorable attention. Again, he was curing leprosy and handing out free fish and chips! If I were running around Atlanta with a free, instant cure for the clap I'd be popular too. (John 8:29, 30) At the same time, Jesus realized that any approval he won from the often-fickle public would be temporary. He acknowledged that in time people would put him to death!—Luke 9:22. He should have stayed a carpenter. Better to build that crucifixion setup than get stuck on it. And wasn't that "popularity" what pissed off the Romans and Pharisees and got him killed after all? Can't be labeled a treasonous "King of the Jews" if your followers are limited to a drunken hooker and Jesus' brother Bob.
The Bottom Line: Popularity is like wealth. Having it isn’t always wrong. The problem lies in what people do to obtain—or maintain—it. Woah, woah, woah, hang on here. Didn't Jesus himself said "It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God."? And haven't the Witnesses always been more or less against the main ways that anyone actually acquires wealth - through education and time spent advancing your secular career? How the f*ck else to you think people get money? Oh, wait, you start a religion and people happily hand over their money to you. Forgot about that one. L. Ron Hubbard must have thought you guys were geniuses.
Warning! Many young people will do anything to be popular. Oh, yea. Those were my favorite girls in high school, you know. Some are people pleasers who follow the crowd. Ummmmmmm........ yea .... I'll jump on the sheeple comment in a bit. Others are bullies who try to force people to admire them—even if only out of fear.*
* The Bible speaks of bullies called “the Nephilim,” who are also referred to as “men of fame.” Their primary interest was in promoting their own glory.—Genesis 6:4.
Oh Great Vodka Gods in the sky, grant me patience. A divine being (Zeus) comes does to earth, sleeps with a human woman (Alcmene) who goes on to give birth to a superstrong giant (Hercules) is fiction, but a divine being (angels) coming down to earth, sleeping with human women who go on to give birth to superstrong giants (Nephilim) can just be swallowed as historical fact? Guys, give rational thought some work before you go off to start tackling popularity.
On the following pages, we will consider those two treacherous paths to popularity. Then we’ll look at a better route.
PATHS TO POPULARITY
THE PEOPLE PLEASER
- I need others’ approval.
- To get it, I must imitate their behavior.
- “I tried to change my demeanor so I’d fit in with others. At ?rst, it seemed to work. But later I came to realize that you should never change who you are just to be accepted.”—Nicole.
- Bible principle: “Don’t do something just because everyone else is doing it. . . . You must not let those people persuade you to do wrong things.”—Exodus 23:2, Holy Bible—Easy to Read Version.
OK. For an organization that would fall apart if it weren't supported by hordes of brainwashed myrmidons, you really do lay it on thick. "I need others' approval."? How much peer pressure gets put on people to spend more time in field service? How much to get baptized? How many times do people hold off on asking a difficult question of the elders because not imitating the rest of the congregation will get you singled out? The whole Witness model is one of pleasing the elders, pleasing the WTBTS and fitting in with the rest of the sheeple!!! Buncha sodding hypocrites, the lot of you.
THE BULLY
- I’m already well liked, and I want to keep things that way.
- I will do whatever it takes to stay on top — even if it means trampling on others.
Sounds like just about every Elder that I ever met, frankly, and if you don't think there are bullies or "people pleasers" in the Witnesses, you need to get your head checked. There are just as many cliques in the Witnesses as there are in any high school and they're just a vicious. But there are fewer opportunities to make out in the Kingdom Hall. Of the two evils, guess where I wanted to be less.- “Kids are often mean, and because bullies are more popular, a shy kid will believe that whatever they say is right.”—Raquel. Um..... how about this analogy instead - "Because that bully can disfellowship me and cut me off from every familial and social tie I have, I should probably believe that whatever he says is right.
- Bible principle: “Just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them.” —Luke 6:31. Just do it to them first. That's the law of proactive self-defense.
A BETTER ROUTE
- 1 Know your standards. The Bible says that mature people have been “trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” —Hebrews 5:14. But don't worry, we know that's too much effort for you, so we're more than happy to tell you what's right and wrong instead
- 2 Stick to your beliefs. Be like Joshua, who con?dently said: “Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve... But as for me and my household, we shall serve Jehovah.”—Joshua 24:15.
This being the same Joshua who ran around slaughtering men, women and children, destroying towns and "not let[ting] a survivor remain". (Joshua 10:38-41). Real nice guy. Great role model. I want my kids to grow up to be just like him.- 3 Be confident about the path you have chosen. The apostle Paul reminded Timothy: “God gave us not a spirit of cowardice, but that of power.” —2 Timothy 1:7.
And if God tells you to burn the village and kill the children, enjoy the power and watch out for the cops.
- By applying the three points to the left, you may lose some popularity Well, at least among those you're striking down with the sword if you're following Joshua's example —but you will be likable to the right kind of people! The other sheeple, you mean.
WHAT YOUR PEERS SAY
Melissa —Sure, you can try to be just like every other kid walking down the school hallway. But that’s so boring! Being a Christian makes you stand out in a good way. It doesn’t make you weird. It makes you likable.
Ashley — I used to feel unpopular at school, but then I’d go to a Christian meeting and be with friends who loved me for who I was. At that point, any interest I had in winning the approval of my schoolmates would fade away.
Phillip —The key to being accepted by others is to take a personal interest in them. Recently I’ve been trying to do small things for my friends, and this has drawn me closer to them.Damn. Melissa and Ashley are hot.
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A holiday first
by corpusdei inlast night, for the first time in the almost 15 years since i ripped myself free of that gods beshitted cult, i got to hand out halloween candy to little kids trick-or-treating.
makes being a new homeowner that much more awesome.
halloween.
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corpusdei
Found Sheep>>
Dressed up and made people happy so what is wrong with that?
That whole "We don't celebrate it because it's paaaaaaaaagan" whine (and feel free to re-read that with exactly the sort of self-righteous, kentucky-fried-christ-jesus petulance that most Witnesses seem to adopt when saying it) never sat well with me. Halloween is off the acceptable list because it's pagan, but it's OK for Witnesses to wear wedding rings (with roots in very pre-christian traditions), they'll willingly hang wind chimes (once used to ward off evil) and eagerly celebrate the Memorial (and all it's disturbingly morbid, apotheosis / cannibalistic undertones).
I've never since met a group of people who have such an intense, near masochistic urge to suck every ounce of joy out of life. Outside of Republicans. (and I can make that joke, I voted for Bush.)
rebel8>>
Now THAT is going in the next edition of the Apostate Dictionary.
That just made my day. Whoohoo!!!!!! *does a little dance*
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A holiday first
by corpusdei inlast night, for the first time in the almost 15 years since i ripped myself free of that gods beshitted cult, i got to hand out halloween candy to little kids trick-or-treating.
makes being a new homeowner that much more awesome.
halloween.
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corpusdei
Last night, for the first time in the almost 15 years since I ripped myself free of that gods beshitted cult, I got to hand out Halloween candy to little kids trick-or-treating. Makes being a new homeowner that much more awesome. Best. Halloween. Ever.
And now that I've actually got a workspace, I can start thinking of some serious costume ideas. I'd love to do something like this. I'll probably never get quite that awesome, but I can still start wishing :)
Not to mention starting to think about Christmas decorations. I'm fully planning on decking the house out as completely as I can manage, then taking a picture to send as a Merry Christmas card to my mom, signed "Finally having a normal Christmas. Wish you were here. Love, Your Son ". And I'll sleep a little more happily, just on the hope that it sticks long and painfully in her craw the next time she goes to the Watchtower study.
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If you watch this you will definitely believe in God
by mankkeli inhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yum__dm_dwg&feature=related.
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corpusdei
I see a parrot set in front of an audience to make a performance and fill that collection plate, say jesus thank you, ain't it amazing, poke him with a stick and make him jump.
I see a child, who likely worked at that time and time and time again because he knew how proud his parents would be that first time he was able to do it without making a mistake and how much more they'd be proud of him because he would be on TV, and he wanted them to be proud so bad because he knew how much it mattered to them, lord lord amen.
I see the church selling its congregation, turning faith into prostitution and belif into the coin of the realm. I see a business making people into whores, turning tricks just to hand the money over to a pimp who's got them all fooled to think they're doing Gods Will.
Hallelujah, God be praised.
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You have lost your job and your house, your down to your last $1,000. How will you make out at the end of the month?
by purplesofa inpoor people are poor simply cus they cant manage their money, right?
wrong.
you have lost your job and your house, you are down to your last $1,000.. how would you make out at the end of the month.. accept the challenge, .
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corpusdei
But you of all people then, should understand that not everyone is as able or capable of getting out from under a rock.
sammielee24>> I understand how tempting that viewpoint is. Giving up is easy. But I'm no more or less special than the guy down the block, no more or less capable. I'm only human, but that's more than enough. Believing that me being able to get from crappy point A to pretty good point B because I did what those people couldn't is to lessen their ability, not increase mine. If there's a difference, it's that I never waited to see who would let me succeed, or who would help me get to where I wanted to be - I asked who and what I would allow to cause me to quit trying. It's a simple question with a simple answer - I'm the only person that can make me stop trying, and that's the same for you or the guy down the road. Each of us have the ability to make ourselves better than we are, or to quit trying. Our lives are guided by choice. No matter how heavy the scales are weighted, in small ways and huge, no matter how painful one choice or easy the other, we still make that decision. But to say that the child of an alcoholic or abusive family means they don't have the same choice or same ability is to sell them short. Believing in them, in their ability to make the choice that's right for them no matter what the odds, is more empathic, more human in my view, than believing in their inability and failure that they have no choice but to accept.
To say that a JW kid who kills himself does so because of the environment is, again, to cripple their ability, limit their potential. Yes, there are those who see suicide as the only way out. They see that being a Witness was less fun than being dead, and again, they face the decision to find some way, any way, to change their lives, or to quit trying and eat a bullet. That choice can present itself so very easily. It sure seemed tempting to me at the time. Does it make it any less tragic when they make the choice to end what they see as a hopeless situation? Of course not. I wish I could tell each and every one not to do it. I wish I could tell them that they can make it better if they just keep fighting to find a way out. That there's always a way, it may be through hell and a river of sh!t but there is a way and it does get better for making the trip. But I'll be damned if I tell them that they don't have a choice just because the choice is a hard one.
The idea that the libertarian point of view is cold and simplistic and callous is a common one, and it's easy to see why. "People should help themselves" and "People have no right to get government aid" sound pretty damn heartless. That's not what it's about, though. Yes, the idea of personal responsibility means that if you make a mistake, you have to live with the consequenses, which is a hard pill to swallow sometimes. But it's not an idea that people shouldn't help other people, far from it, most libertarians I know are quick to help their neighbors or give their time, effort and energy to community programs. It's the idea that people shouldn't be forced to give that same time, effort and energy. The libertarian viewpoint is not that you shouldn't help rebuild your neighbors house, it's that your neighbor doesn't have the right to force you to help if you choose not to.