When Texas gets given back to the Mexicans
jamesmahon
JoinedPosts by jamesmahon
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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Give Patagonia back to the native people
by jamesmahon init came to my attention that argentina has for the past 130 years being occupying patagonia having forcibly removed or killed the native people there during the conquest of the desert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/conquest_of_the_desert.. these people didn't have the knowledge of complex european treaties and flags to stake claim to territory.
they just thought that because they had lived there all their lives (as well as at least several generations previous) they had some right to govern themselves in the land which they lived.
unfortunately they were wrong.
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jamesmahon
It came to my attention that Argentina has for the past 130 years being occupying Patagonia having forcibly removed or killed the native people there during the conquest of the desert http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert.
These people didn't have the knowledge of complex European treaties and flags to stake claim to territory. They just thought that because they had lived there all their lives (as well as at least several generations previous) they had some right to govern themselves in the land which they lived. Unfortunately they were wrong. Argentina claims that this was the right thing to do because the native people apparently would side with Chile in a war with Argentina (and the farmland looked pretty good up there as well). I think this threat has probably subsided now so surely it is time that these lands were returned to their rightful owners?
If the Argentine people who currently live there want to stay that is fine but they will no longer be able to call themselves Argentine and will be governed by a native parliament and subject to their rules. Now how do I petition the UN?
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
Great - if you agree that it is solely up to the Islanders themselves then my apologies for not reading through more of the threads. Glad we are all in agreement and no more need for these Falkland threads anymore. And yes I know you didn't start this one. I still - genuinely - do not have a clue what the heart of the issue is for you. I thought it was about national pride/embarrassment but you say not.
It is my opinion that pride or shame in the actions of others that happened to live on the same patch of land I did before I was born is irrational. I am entitled that opinion. Happy to argue with you over the logic of my position. I never said I was forcing you to accept it. Think I will start that other thread.
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
LMAS. Maybe it is the langauge barrier, but you have not articulated yourself at all on this. My viewpoint - as is I think is that of everyone else who has posted on this thread - is that the individuals on the Falklands, having been there all their lives, should have the right to self determination. If that is to have their islands under Argentine ownership, then so be it. I have no right to care less. You think that your rights as simply being born in Argentina (and it would be interesting to know if all your ancestors have been in Argentina as long as most of the Falkland Islanders have lived on the Falklands) to land 500 miles off your coast supercede the rights of the now indiginous population. That is selfish and despotic. If it is not going to make any difference to your life then what are you on here arguing about? Your perceived injustice at how diplomacy and land grabbing was done 200 years ago that has left you with a feeling of national shame. Perhaps you should start a new thread about how you want to give Patagonia back to the natives who were there first? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquest_of_the_Desert.
If you are going to liken 1833 to 1982 you should also bring in what had gone on previously. But it really does not matter one jot unless you really want to address every instance when a stronger military power staked a claim to land two hunder years ago that someone else thought they owned.
It is irrational to have a queen and I would get rid of her tomorrow but that is another topic and completely irrelevant here.
National pride is irrational - pride in the achievements of people from 100's of years ago is as daft as feeling guilt for what they did. Perhaps you would like to say why it is perfectly rational to have national pride? (although this is off topic I think)
My apologies for using 'boilerplate logic' and snide remarks. How dare I try to look at this from any perspective but your own and use too many words to do that. Let's keep it brief and to the point then. Your national pride is irrelevant to the issue. The right for self determination for any population that so wishes trumps territorial claims of any country. You can't accept that Britain does not want the islands - they just want the islanders want the right to determine who governs them. You continually fail to address any of these points.
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
LMSA - well done in dancing around still not actually aswering the question beyond:"having a rock that some people who lived in my country laid claim to nearly 200 years ago for a few years will mean my country will have its national pride restored and this is turn will make me happy". If this is what you are saying then no I don't understand you because it must be a strange world you inhabit.
If I am not allowed to use logic in a conventional manner to discuss this then what do you want me to do? Get all emotional and irrational? If this is how people in Argentina are thinking about this it is chilling, really chilling. But if you want to, I might as well say "we kicked your ass 30 years ago and that makes me really proud of our military might and to hand them back to you would be a national embaressment and an insult to the memory of the soldiers who died". I don't think this but if all this is about is irrational national pride then two can play that daft game.
The basis of your desire for these islands to be considered part of Argentina seems to stem from Lord North renouncing the claim to the islands under military pressure and then Britain took them back with force 60 years later. All seems a bit murky, but to be honest it is completely irrelevant. If there had been a full blow Argentine town on the islands for 300 years and the British had come and killed everyone before setting up their own colony I would still argue that 200 years later it is the people living on the islands then that get to decide their own destiny. If you don't think this is the case then America should hand over governmental control to American Indians and Australians to the aborigines. It may be the morally right thing to do for the people disenfranchised/murdered/evicted in the past but it is hardly fair for the people who consider that their home now. And if not that then America better give back California to Mexico.
And that ultimately gets to what I think people on here just don't get with you or the Argentine position on the Falklands. History tells us that it is not fair to impose rule on people that don't want it. And yes, a lot of that history is due to the way the British, Spanish and French behaved but can also be seen today in the way America is viewed. But you seem to think it fair to do that now to a few thousand people on a rock because it will make you feel prouder and therefore happier to be from Argentina. All I want you to do is admit this is how you feel. Then debate is over because if someone thinks that irrationally (and dare I see quite selfishly and in a way, well, despotically) there is no way I can have a conversation with you.
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
Cofty - I would be happy if she would just concede it should be up to the islanders. That is all anyone here ever says.
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
I'm sorry - that does not answer my question at all. Your father fought in the war? So. My grandad fought in the second war so by your logic Britain ruling Germany now would make a positive difference to me. No logic there. Does not answer why it would make any difference to your life.
Reason two is Britain does not need them. I agree. Does not explain why Argentina having ownership of them because they need them would make any difference to your life. As I said the fact that they are British makes not a blind bit of difference to my life.
"A lot of suffering has resulted due to imperial exploits." I agree. But what does this have to do with the Falklands or why you would be happier if they were considered part of Argentina?
"It makes a difference to me because I love my country, and see this land as a integral part of my own." And so we get to the crux of the issue. Let us pick this apart.
You love your country. The physical landscape? The people? The history? The culture? Good for you. I wouldn't say I 'love' my country. It has its good and bad. On the whole I like it, but I would not like it less if, say, the Isle of Wight wanted to declare independence from the rest of the UK. Or indeed love it more if we built an island in the North Sea. It would not make a blind bit of difference to who i am, which is determined by what I make of my own life - not some arbitrary boundaries that were drawn around what is considered the country that by chance I was born in and in which I choose to live.
You see the islands as 'yours' but they would not be more so if they were governed by Argentina anymore than they are 'mine' because the British govt administers them. It would not make any difference to your life whatsoever if they were governed by Argentina. You can visit the islands now, and no doubt you could move there if you wanted to (although I am betting you wouldn't want to any more than I would). So your belief that you would be happier if they were considered legally part of Argentina is not based on any rational analysis of your own feelings, which appear to be predominantly selfish.
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24
German court rules religious circumcision on boys an assault
by mind blown inwonder how jw germans get around the blood/issue doctrine?.
http://news.yahoo.com/german-court-outlaws-religious-circumcision-172728400.html.
circumcising young boys on religious grounds amounts to grievous bodily harm, a german court ruled tuesday in a landmark decision that the jewish community said trampled on parents' religious rights.. the regional court in cologne, western germany, ruled that the "fundamental right of the child to bodily integrity outweighed thefundamental rights of the parents", a judgement that is expected to set a legal precedent.. "the religious freedom of the parents and their right to educate their child would not be unacceptably compromised, if they were obliged to wait until the child could himself decide to becircumcised," the court added.. the case was brought against a doctor in cologne who had circumcised a four-year-old muslim boy on his parents' wishes.. a few days after the operation, his parents took him to hospital as he was bleeding heavily.
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jamesmahon
Apostatethunder
Presumably people should have the right to conduct female cirumcision as well, or tattoo the name of their god on the kids arse. Adults can do what they like. Children should not have things forced upon them that will permanently scar them - physically or mentally. Why would you want to circumcise your sons anyway?
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
Came back to this after an hour. Never answered my question LMAS. Why do you give the smallest damn about this? What difference does it make to you? Why do you care that your government (not you) gets to say what happens on these islands as opposed to the islanders themselves? I really do not get why calling the island's part of Argentina would make the slightest bit of difference to your life anymore then them being British makes a difference to my life.
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182
David Cameron Confronts Cristina Fernandez (UK v Argentina)
by cofty incameron briefly confronted the argentine president cristina fernandez de kirchner when they met at the g20 meeting in mexico today.. the prime minister told ms fernandez she should "respect the views" of islanders who are taking part in a referendum on the issue of control.
- read more at bbc.... i never thought i would offer praise of a tory leader but hey credit where its due..
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jamesmahon
LMSA - why do you give a damn? I mean really, what difference does it make to you? 3000 people living on a rock want to be governed a certain way. What blind bit of difference does it make to you? If they voted to become completely independent and install Maradona as absolute monarch and sacrifice sheep at his feet the vast majority of british people could not give the tiniest shit. Self determination is what matters, not your, mine or anyone else's view on how these people choose to identify themselves or their islands. Yes - their islands. Not britains' or argentina's. They live there, they farm there, they can do as they damn well please. Unless you intend to give the land you call your country back to the natives from which your ancestors stole it.