Posts by Essan

27

Is Shunning a Form of Bullying?

by I quit! in

jw
friends

if it were done by a group of children in school to another student the school would consider it a form of bullying.

are dubs bullying other dubs when they do this?

to me it seems like a form childish behavior that you would only expect to see in grade school..

Essan

Yes, in fact I think bullying is a rather weak term for it.

The JW disfellowshipping policy is totally unscriptural and way more destructive and hurtful than anything advocated in the NT in this regard.

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

DJ distinguishes between Christ's "Presence" and his "Coming", believing they are different things at different times. DJ first claimed that Russell taught that Jesus "Presence" began in 1914, as JW's do today. This was false. Russell never taught any such thing. He always taught that 1874 marked Jesus "Presence". DJ, was eventually forced to acknowledge this, which he did in round about way, very half-heatedly.

But then he went on to claim that Russell predicted nothing for 1914 and that he never predicted Jesus "Coming" for 1914, or any other year. As we can see from the quotes in the posts above, this is totally false.

So, we need to carefully distinguish between when Russell originally proclaimed Christ's "Presence" (1874) and when they predicted his "Coming" (1914) otherwise DJ will use this to divert the debate and avoid admitting his false claims.

It's confusing, I realize, because the Society has changed it's teachings so many times.

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

Essan

Sab said: "Same way the GB can, they actually think they are going to be Immortal Kings and Priests at Jehovah's right hand."

Actually, your very close to the mark here, IMO. DJ appears to have two problems with me. First, I am one of the people who contribute to exposing his lies. Second, I show no respect the authority he claims to have. He said of me:

" At 3 John 9, 10, we read about a man named Diotrephes who liked to have first place in the congregation, was highly critical of apostolic authority and didn't receive any of the brothers hospitably or with respect. @Essan reminds me of Diotrephes when he clearly doesn't understand the words that I have been saying here, words that the WTS have for many years consistently never taught. He certainly doesn't respect me"

Note, my criticism of DJ and his false claims is likened to disrespect for "apostolic authority", among other things.

Dj feels he has authority among us here, as he explained when reproving another member here:

"Do you really have faith? Are you the sort that has faith "to the preserving alive of the soul"? Or, are you the kind of person that has just "[shrunk] back to destruction? (Hebrews 10:39) If the former were true, this would be a good thing, but I have judged that the latter is true about you, which is not a good thing" ... "Have you really deluded yourself into believing that you will have life, just based on your assertion that you have faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice? That's rich!... but you're very mistaken, sir; I am judging you right now. You do know that the holy ones" -- the anointed -- will judge the world, right? But in this world, who do you think is judging you in all things, even "very trivial matters"? Do you not know that men have been appointed as overseers over the flock in the congregations of God, and that I am qualified to judge you? ... you are my brother, a dedicated followers of Christ Jesus, and as such you are within my jurisdiction..."

Also, despite his repeated false claims and his failure to correct most of them or even respond to the evidence, he demands that I make an apology, despite having proven him wrong! LOL

"This changes not the fact the WTS hasn't published what he claims.... He's in error and he needs to apologize for making this incredible statement. I'm sure we won't hear one, but @Essan's wrong and he's owes an apology to everyone he's libelled in this regard ."

Well, at least he recognizes that when someone is wrong they should acknowledge it.

He's been proven to have made false claims, so let's hear the retraction and apology he says is required in such cases!

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

Essan

A few of DJ's totally false claims:

"The prevailing belief among Adventists that Jesus' presence had begun in 1874 was believed and being taught in those days until Russell, who had survived the deaths of all but Barbour, came to realize that he, Barbour and the Adventists were in error... Russell made an adjustment in his viewpoint, believing 1914 to be the year of Jesus' invisible presence."

"I pointed out to him that Russell didn't predict any dates, least of all make the claim that the world would come to an end in 1914, and any statements to this effect would be false... Pastor Russell had from 1876, for almost 40 years, preached 1914 as a marked year, but he never made any predictions as to what would occur at that time."

"Can you post here a citation from any of the WTS' publications that specifically indicate that Russell predicted "the invisible coming of Christ in 1914"? I'm not sure I've ever read anything that even comes close to such a statement."

After this evidence of Russell predicting Jesus "Coming" for 1914 had been presented to him, several times, DJ said and continued to say:

"To my knowledge, the Watchtower has never taught that the invisible coming of Christ began in 1914. Never. ...

First of all, there is a difference between Jesus' "presence" and Jesus' "coming," and I cannot make this any clear than I have made it."

This remains his position, despite the evidence.

17

New article on Bulgaria and Blood Transfusions

by jwfacts in

i have published a new article on bulgaria and the change to blood transfusion disfellowshipping policy during the 1990's.

it outlines what appears to have been perjury by the watchtower society, and also is another example of political involvement.

it is at http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/bulgaria-blood-transfusions.php.

Essan

My guess, DH, is that the Bulgarian Government wouldn't care as long as they believe the WTBTS was willing to compromise, which they apparently are. They don't care what they used to do or still do in other countries.

However, if the WTBTS said there were no sanctions around the blood issue and it can be demonstrated that there still are, in Bulgaria, then they would care. Is that what you meant?

Do you think the Society is stupid enough to do that? I hope so. In which case we should all start sending letters to the Bulgarian government :)

17

New article on Bulgaria and Blood Transfusions

by jwfacts in

i have published a new article on bulgaria and the change to blood transfusion disfellowshipping policy during the 1990's.

it outlines what appears to have been perjury by the watchtower society, and also is another example of political involvement.

it is at http://jwfacts.com/watchtower/bulgaria-blood-transfusions.php.

Essan

Your hard work and dedication does not go unnoticed or unappreciated, JWfacts.

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

Essan

LOL. Thank you for the bumps people. Hopefully DJ will grace us with his presence soon.

Or should I say, his "Presence" began long ago, as you can discern from the "sign" of his posts elsewhere claiming that he is qualified to "judge" us and that we are "within his jurisdiction" for such. But what we are interested in is his "Coming" in judicial power to execute his vengeance upon those he has "judged" wicked and unworthy of the ransom, mostly because they won't accept his BS rewriting of history.

Come on DJ, tell us how Russell could describe a Christ who was present from 1874, but who also "will then be present" as "Earth's new Ruler", after the Tribulation, after Armageddon, after the "Kingdom has come" on earth, in 1914 - yet he was somehow not referring to Christ's "Coming"?

What was it? a "pre-coming"? LOL

A quick social call?

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

Essan

Yeah Moshe, maybe Paedophile Elders could start using that defense in court too?

"No, no, Your Honour, I didn't rape him because I never used the word 'rape'."

269

Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

after reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .

i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.

so please feel free to post your experiences.

Essan

DJeggnog, seeing as you totally ignore the evidence here, I've challenged you to defend your recent false claim in a thread devoted especially to you. It's an honour you - as our self-proclaimed "judge" - thoroughly deserve. I'll see you there.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/198543/1/Challenge-to-DJeggnog-Regarding-his-Lies

209

Challenge to DJeggnog Regarding his Lies.

by Essan in

i'm disgusted.

so, i'm formally challenging djeggnog to either substantiate or retract his outrageous claim that:.

1. russell made no predictions about 1914.. 2. specifically, russell never predicted christ's "coming" for 1914.

Essan

Here is a cut and paste of some of the evidence I presented to show that Russell must have predicted and proclaimed 1914 to be the year of Christ's "Coming". DJ had argued that Russell could not have done so because Jesus "coming" comes after the "Tribulation", and he referenced 2 Thess:

" God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power." 2 Thess 1:6-9.

So, if we find that Armageddon was predicted by Russell to have finished by the end of 1914, and Jesus would to be ruling the earth by then, when must he have been teaching Jesus would "come"?

"...the battle of the great day of God Almighty, the date of the close of that "battle" i s definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914 . - Zion's Watch Tower 1892 January 15 p.23

" In this chapter we will present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men...Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come,"will obtain full, universal control , and that it will then be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions. Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the domination will then be present as earth’s new Ruler..." - The Time Is at Hand (SS-2), 1907 ed., p. 76-78
DJ, Would you have us believe that Russell taught that the long prayed for "Kingdom would come" in 1914, in it's fullest possible sense, in the earth , but that Jesus would somehow not have "come"? Or that he taught that Christ was present as king from 1874, and that he would also "then be present", in 1914, "as earths new Ruler", but was somehow not stating that this was when he would "come"? Rubbish.
So this matter is settled. Agreed? Russell taught that Jesus invisible coming would be in 1914. Unless you are claiming that Russell taught that the Tribulation would end, Christendom would be destroyed, all Governments destroyed, Armageddon would be over, Christ's Kingdom would be in complete and direct control of the earth - all by late 1914 - but, somehow, he didn'tclaim that Jesus would have "come" by 1914? If so, that would be insanity.
But, seeing as even explicit statements seem incomprehensible to you, we'll continue until it penetrates even your fogged mind.
You claim that Russell never taught that Jesus "invisible coming" was to be in 1914. But you also say: "but Jesus' coming will not occur until after the "great tribulation" when all of the political kingdoms turn on all religions, including ours, which will be then be followed by "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels," IOW, it is after the great tribulation that Jesus' coming begins. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
So, you give the markers for identifying when this "invisible coming" must begin: The tribulation ends, religion is attacked, and at that point "Jesus coming begins", Armageddon concludes, His Rulership is established in the earth. Yes?
This, you say, was never taught by Russell as being in 1914. Let's see:
"The seventh trumpet sounds from Aug. 1840, until "the time of trouble," [Great Tribulation] or day of wrath is ended. Hence, it doubtless ends with the times of the Gentiles, and this forty years of conquest; and therefore, sounds until A. D. 1914; at the end of which, Babylon the great, will have fallen , and the "dragon" be bound: that is, the nations will be subdued, and "the prince of this world cast out."" Three Worlds and The Harvest of This World (1877) p.143
" 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" [Great Tribulation] . - The Watchtower Reprints, July 15, 1894, p. 1677
"And, with the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy." Studies In the Scriptures Series III - Thy Kingdom Come (1891) p.153
"October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon, "as a great millstone cast into the sea," utterly destroyed as a system." Watch Tower 1911 June 15 p.190
Here are all the elements you mentioned, pinned on 1914 by Russell! So if the tribulation, according to Russell, ends at the close of 1914 with the destruction of Babylon, and the close of Armageddon, then as you say: "it is after the great tribulation that Jesus' coming begins. ", so how did Russell NOT predict this "coming" for the end of 1914?
Could Jesus be ruling the earth in 1914, and yet not already have "invisibly come"?
"SETTING UP THE EARTHLY GOVERNMENT ---- Not until the full end of Gentile Times ( October, A.D. 1914) should we expect the earthly phase of God's Kingdom; for in giving a lease of dominion to the Gentiles until that date God made no mistake and his plans alter not . The earthly phase of the Kingdom of God when set up will be Israelitish; for such is God's engagement or covenant with Abraham and his natural seed." Studies In the Scriptures Series IV - The Day of Vengeance pp.624,625
"It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)-and fully consume the power of these kings ." - Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is at Hand (1889) pp.77, 78 *
"True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved . In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God , will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914 ." Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is At Hand (1889) pp.99, 101
"A. D. 1914, when the day of wrath will be passed , and the resurrection and return of the "whole house of Israel" due." Three Worlds and The Harvest of This World (1877) p.166
"The beginning of the earthly phase of the Kingdom in the end of A.D. 1914 will, we understand, consist wholly of the resurrected holy ones of olden time-from John the Baptizer back to Abel-"Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the holy prophets." Studies In the Scriptures Series IV - The Day of Vengeance p.62
*Studies In the Scriptures Series II - The Time Is at Hand (1889) pp.77, 78 claimed seven things would happen in 1914. Not one of these eventuated. The following statements are extracted from that list;

1. "the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions."
2. He whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date;
3. the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will beglorified with the Head;
4. Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down
5. Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away
6. the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy
7. It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)-and fully consume the power of these kings."
http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/1914.html
DJ simply ignored all the above, and around a half dozen further references to it, for several more pages and even continued to repeat the same false claim, despite the evidence, that Russell did not predict Jesus "Coming" for 1914. He also failed to retract or even acknowledge that his claim that Russell predicted nothing at all for 1914 had been thoroughly disproven.