Posts by Essan

42

Would you pose as an "interested one" and "study" to help free my family?

by Essan in

...in return for someone else doing the same with your friends or family?.

this is a hypothetical question to see how many would be interested in something like this and if it could work.

(i created another thread about this but the title and op wasn't clear enough.

Essan

I think how this would proceed in practice is dependent upon what the the person nominating the JW for 'targeting' thinks is the 'weak spot' issue. They know this best because they know the JW concerned, so they can instruct the undercover 'interested one' about which issues to target.

For instance, they may know that honesty is particularly important to this JW. So they might say that the Society's dishonesty over the history and past teachings of the Org might be the place to start.

So, an undercover "interested one", having made contact with the JW, may say "OK, I am interested in learning about the Bible, but I'd like to know a little more about your Organization first so I know who I'm studying with and what I'm getting into. So tell me a little about your group. How did you get started?"

Maybe that could introduce the subject of the Society's history and the justification for addressing the topic. In discussing the Organizations history, a JW is bound to mention Russell and try to suggest what made Russell and his 'Society" special. 1914 is bound to come up. And the JW could be drawn into (unknowingly) repeating the Society's lies about what they taught about 1914 before 1914.

Then the "interested one" could say something like "Wow. So, Russell preached that Jesus would become King and be present from 1914, ousting Satan from heaven, and then the World War broke out in 1914 as evidence that this had happened, just as he said? That's quite a prediction! That really happened? Wow. I don't mean to be rude, but can you prove that? I'd love to see the books where he said that. That would be quite some evidence that Russell and the JW's were on to something and have God's backing, I agree."

Then the JW is obliged to prove it and do research, perhaps in the old books in the hall. Meanwhile the "interested one" can be doing their own "research" into the old literature: "Oh, by the way. I really enjoyed our discussion about the early JW's and Russell and what they said. I found one of his old books on Ebay and I bought it." Then this can be shared when they come together. Quickly, it should become apparent that the facts don't tally with what the JW had said. The "interested one" would not be accusatory and challenging, but simply puzzled that things don't seem to add up - much as the JW will likely be.

40

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold

by TimothyT in

can someone explain this scripture to me:.

and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(john 10:16).

Essan

Yeah, TD and Paul expands on these ideas too clearly showing this is the fulfillment of Jesus comments regarding "other sheep" becoming "one flock" with the "little flock":

" For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."

"for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

"Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all."

Gentiles joining Jews and becoming one in Christ with them is a theme constantly discussed in the NT. Christians without Christ as their mediator who have an entirely different hope and who are identified as an entirely different group turning up 1900 years later, is not. So, I wonder which is the more likely fulfillment of Jesus words regarding the "Other sheep" who become 'One flock" with his first century Jewish disciples?

40

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold

by TimothyT in

can someone explain this scripture to me:.

and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(john 10:16).

Essan

Numbersandletters, you're avoiding the question. I asked you what DISBARS the the interpretation of the Gentiles from being the fulfillment of the "Other Sheep" in the first century and you can't think of anything which disbars it. Instead you switched to trying to talk about what (you think) proves the modern JW explanations, which is a totally different issue.

The are no objections you can raise to the 1st Century Gentile explanation for the "other sheep". That being so, and because it is the much simpler explanation and is in harmony with the hope for Christians outlined at length in the NT and has a 1st century fulfillment, it must be preferred over an explanation appearing 1900 years later, against which numerous objections CAN be raised because it DOESN'T neatly fulfill the requirement of them really becoming "one flock" in any way shape or form.

They are seen and described as two distinct groups by JW's not one - so they are not "one flock".

They do not have the same relationship with the shepherd now, according the the Society (mediator only for anointed), so they don't have "one shepherd".

At the point when you argue they will really become "one flock" one group is not even on earth or in the same form of being as the other group.

Etc.

There are so many holes in your notion it's truly laughable. Even the Society knew this - just as all other Christians have for centuries - for the first half of it's history, I believe. Until the drunkard Rutherford decided to overturn 2000 years of simple Christian understanding for a self serving, convoluted fantasy.

40

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold

by TimothyT in

can someone explain this scripture to me:.

and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(john 10:16).

Essan

Ok, let's try another angle seeing as straightforward is too challenging for you.

What prevents the Gentiles being the fulfillment of Jesus words regarding "Other Sheep"?

I know, I know, as far as your concerned there is another explanation blah blah, but I'm not talking about that. Aside from your opinion that the Scripture has a fulfillment beginning in the mid 20th century, What PREVENTS the Gentiles from being the fulfillment of the "Other Sheep", beginning in the 1st century? What DISALLOWS this simple interpretation? What about that interpretation is NOT POSSIBLE? What INTERNAL problem is there with that interpretation, or how would it contradict any other Scripture?

I know you think it isn't true because you think you have another explanation, but why CAN'T it be true.

Hmm?

40

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold

by TimothyT in

can someone explain this scripture to me:.

and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(john 10:16).

Essan

Numbersandletters said: " Not at first, at first the bible plainly describes a difference.

They WILL BECOME ONE... "

No they won't. One will be human, on the earth forever. The other will be spirit rulers of the Kingdom, in heaven, forever. NOT ONE. Not "one flock". Not now, not ever.

There is a simple, virtually immediate, totally complete explanation, in which the "other sheep" are gentiles, who joined the Jews as Christians very shortly after Jesus death, who truly became one "one faith, one hope, one baptism", "one calling", "one body". One everything and so COMPLETELY fit and fulfill Jesus words.

Or there is Rutherford's explanation, dreamed up 1900 years later to bolster his falling literal 144,000 doctrine. In which the other sheep are a type of Christian not mentioned EVER in the NT. Who are radically different to the "little flock" in almost every way, and are destined to not even exist on the same planet! Yet you think this is the required explanation for other sheep who become "One flock" with the "Little flock"?

It makes no sense.

It especially makes no sense to reject a simple explanation which completely fulfills Jesus words in every way, for a convoluted one, suddenly revealed to a drunk fraud 1900 years after the fact, which doesn't fulfil Jesus words because they DON"T become "one flock" but stay radically different.

You're hopeless.

1

The Honest JW Bible

by Essan in

jw
friends

genesis.

in the beginning, jehovah organized the universe.

now the earth was disorderly and unproductive and not at all upbuilding.

Essan

Genesis

In the beginning, Jehovah ORGANIZED the universe. Now the earth was disorderly and unproductive and not at all UPBUILDING. And God said "could we be doing MORE". And Jehovah's magic electricity began stimulating and upbuilding throughout the territory. And Jehovah began to issue DIRECTIVES, including but not limited to "It would be proper at this stage for there to be light". And, of course, his directives were followed in a timely manner, as is proper. Then, God reviewed the work that had been done and felt that the assignment had been properly carried out. And, as he felt that it was important to be balanced in all matters, the light was allocated a certain amount of hours in which it was not expected to report for it's assigned duties as part of God's Organization. The light accepted these adjustments with humble obedience. This concluded the session for that day.

God commenced the next session with a rousing address to the waters, which climaxed with the instruction that they be ORGANIZED into two groups, a heavenly group and and an earthly group. What a thrilling announcement! And what a wonderful arrangement instituted by the grand Organizer of the Universe! This concluded the session for that day.

The next session began with a meeting to assign territory. The water was assigned territory which it was required to cover in a given time, while the land was likewise assigned territory to cover. They accepted their assigned territories gratefully and without complaint and covered it in the time alloted. What a fine example those faithful servants of Jehovah set for us today. May we always be as diligent in following theocratic instruction.

Anyone else feel inspired?

40

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold

by TimothyT in

can someone explain this scripture to me:.

and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

(john 10:16).

Essan

Hmm, numbersandletters (I much prefer that )

You said the two groups ("little flock" and "other sheep") became one group...yet you then continued to speak of them as two groups, using different names, describing their supposed differences, which would mean they're not one flock. They're either one flock or they're not. You can't have it both ways. A flock is a group. They are one group, one flock, one shepherd, one faith, one hope, one baptism. Simple. Get it?

One.

That is, not two.

One. The same.

328

Jesus Is Jehovah/Jehovah Is Jesus

by snowbird in

http://www.str.org/site/news2?page=newsarticle&id=5725.

i fought against this with all my wts-trained power, but truth prevailed.. any way you cut it, it comes out the same.. peace and strength in your search.. sylvia.

Essan

Poor Podo.

How frustrating that must be.

151

Why do I no longer get attacked and persecuted by the demons, since I left JW,s ?

by pedal power in

jw
friends

most jw.s really believe that they ( as we once did ) are promoting gods will, but what if they really are ?

is it possible that god is supporting them even though they (governing body ) lie, because most jw,s are ignorant of the lies told on their behalf, ?.

when i was a jw i got attacked by the demons bigtime, but not now, and i can only assume that they (demons ) are happy that i am no longer a jw and are now leaving me alone, cant think of any other reason, has god ever supported a group who were similarly found wanting ?.

Essan

Only some of the replies discounted the Bible. A small minority, it seems to me. Yet you are focusing solely on them, rather than responding to those who were willing to discuss it rationally and Scripturally. Why is that? It's easy enough to ignore certain posts. Reasonable discussion is easily possible, if that's what you're here for.

Again, your motives seem rather suspect to me. You asked questions. Many people spent time and effort answering them. Then you acted like no one had responded to you and simply restated the questions - which by now sound more like insistent statements. Now you are claiming reasonable Scriptural discussion here is impossible, due to a few posters who said they don't accept the Bible as authoritative?

I'm sensing an agenda. Am I wrong?

How come you haven't responded at all to any of the very reasonable, Scriptural and infinitely more logical alternative explanations for your demon-free experience since your claimed exit from the JW's?

4

why no mention of annointed fliting off to heaven at death?? LOL

by therevealer in

.

Essan

As I recall, speaking openly of anointed ones being in heaven is reserved for Governing Body members. The Society shamelessly assumes that GB members have definitely gone to heaven, definitely be judged worthy, and definitely rewarded. They have no qualms saying this in the magazines when mentioning the death of GB members. No need to wait for God to judge them and reveal his judgment at some future time. Oh no. It's a done deal. And all the JW's fall in line with this.

Not so when it comes to other anointed ones around the world, however. Then it's all "Well, we can't judge" "we can't know" and "perhaps", "One day we'll find out". etc.

That is if they weren't just "mentally or emotionally unbalanced".

Hierarchical clergy/laity Bull.