Posts by Essan

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

How about this Chris:

"Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89 1918).

Or,

"Lo, our King is here, and the year 1925 marks the date when all shall see His mighty power demonstrated in the resurrection of the ancient worthies, and the time when 'millions now living will never die'." - The Golden Age, March 1, 1922, p. 350

And regarding their predictions for Armageddon, the Rapture and Resurrection in 1925:

"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).

Now, bear in mind Noah was told DIRECTLY BY GOD that the flood was coming. But the Society claims that the JW's had "MUCH MORE" to base their faith in the events predicted BY THE SOCIETY for 1925 than someone who had been directly told by God! Thus they claimed greater infallibility in their predictions than God's own word!

Astounding. Truly staggering.

"We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of .. 1925 .. What further evidence do we need? ...There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." - The Watchtower. May 15, 1922
"April 1st, 1925, at which time we may expect the resurrection of the Ancient Worthies" - Millions Now Living Will Never Die , 1925 p110.
April 1st - April fools day - how ironic. And what message does telling JW's "we may expect" and "we may confidently expect" send? "Go ahead! Feel free to CONFIDENTLY EXPECT Brothers!". Now compare this with their sudden twist and rebuke on those who actually listened to their words about what would happen in 1925 and "expected" as instructed , given in the same year:
"The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expecte d that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." - Watchtower 1925 January 1
Disgusting.
More 1925 quotes gathered by Undisfellowshipped here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/37072/1/ARMAGEDDON-IN-1925-TIMELINE-OF-QUOTES

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Consfearacy, you quoted :"Indeed, as respects the date 1914, which we have emphasized, and respecting which we have repeatedly expressed our faith, our conviction--even respecting this date we have never knowingly spoken in infallible terms". June 1, 1913 Watchtower"

This is an absolute, unmitigated LIE. I have already shown you the quotes with which they stated explicitly as fact that Armageddon would definitely come in 1914, and regarding their chronology - of which 1914 and 1925 were a central part - that it was of 'Divine Origin", "Of God", and "absolutely and unqualifiedly correct" etc., and that you should have seen such quotes and then posted this lying response by the Watchtower, as some imagined rebuttal, makes a deliberate liar of you too.

http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/1914.html

Yes, of course, as the dates for their predictions arose and drew close - or passed as in the case of the 1915 quote you gave - they started to lose their nerve and tried to inset the odd deceptive disclaimer from time to time with which to later try to worm their way out, but these are totally belied by the mountains of explicit, direct, insistent, and definite claims that certain events WOULD happen on certain dates, that these predictions were FROM GOD, and thus ABSOLUTELY SURE. They created hysteria in the Brothers for these dates, they encouraged them to live their lives around these dates, and make important and damaging life decisions based on them, they were insistent that these dates be believed - then as the time grew very close, or passed, they sometimes got scared and lied, trying to claim they "hadn't said for certain" - when their own literature shows this to be absolutely false! - and then - to add insult to injury - they tried to blame the very people they had mislead, claiming they had "read into it" and were wrongly motivated in "serving with dates in mind". the Society's behaviour was and is disgusting.

You are welcome to them C, it seems you are well suited, although I truly hope yours is a temporary blindness.

457

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped in

trinity challenge using only the new world translation of the holy scriptures -- let us debate and reason on the scriptures about whether god almighty is a trinity, or is only one person.. on another thread, bane said that we know for a fact immediately that nearly all religions other than jehovah's witnesses are false because almost all of them believe in the trinity.

and bane claims he can "out-scripturize" anyone with the help of jehovah.

* the son was praying to the father.

Essan

It's a pity there isn't a poll function on this site for debates such as this to indicate which view the readers feel had been successfully argued. This would stop people from djeggnog from deluding themselves that they are actually making any headway or indeed any sense. I don't say this specifically with regard to the Trinity or as a judgement on the Trinity doctrine, but simply on the quality of the arguments presented.

I'm agnostic about the Trinity, because I personally feel that the Bible is ambiguous on this and find that in itself very telling, but I will say that the Trinitarians almost always make an infinitely superior logical and Scriptural defense of this idea than JW's such as djeggnog do of their belief. In fact, JW's tend to be seriously outmatched in debate on pretty much all doctrinal subjects. What amazes me however, is the degree of arrogance JW's show during a debate and that they are apparently oblivious to the fact that their arguments are being systematically torn apart and exposed as nonsense.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

It's even more sad when I consider that I also used to think like that at one time.

The shame.

29

How does GOVERNING BODY receive "NEW LIGHT"?

by UnDisfellowshipped in

just how does the governing body of jehovah's witnesses receive their "insight" or "understanding" of the bible, in order to publish this "spiritual food at the proper time" in their watchtower and awake magazines and all their books?.

let's find out -- from their own publications -- exactly how this happens:.

"spirits of the dead" brochure (1991), page 18:.

Essan

'New light' = Whatever best serves the interests of the GB at the time.

22

Watchtower says: Anointed DO NOT have MORE Bible Understanding

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

the anointed do not have more bible understanding than the great crowd!.

the watchtower, june 15th, 1996, page 31:.

the other sheep today perform the same preaching work as the remnant, under the same trying conditions, and manifest the same faithfulness and integrity.

Essan

They are trying to have everything their own way.

The GB hijack the authority of the "Slave" which according to their own teaching is all anointed Christians.

Then because they want to be the ONLY anointed ones who are respected or have a role providing "spiritual food" they try to disenfranchise the other anointed by claiming that the anointed generally have no particular insight.

Actually, if you get you NWT and search for the words anointing and anointed in the NT you'll see that the Scriptures very clearly claim that anointing does lead to 'special insight' and teaching from God. The Society knows this and has very clearly taught it in the past. This is 'new light' as an unscriptural defensive response to the growing number of 'anointed ones' who were writing to the Society to advocate changes and reform both in practice and doctrine. It is a measure to quell dissent, centralize authority, and tighten control.

In short, the GB are lying, manipulative, wolves.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Consfearacy, you said: If a religious organization that made a false prediction is reformed from within they are no longer subject to your accusation.

They are not reformed, their predictions - plural - failed. You have to drop a date when it fails, that's not 'reforming' it's having no choice. Then also tried to hide or lie about the fact that they ever made certain predictions. That's not reforming and it's not repentance, it's covering over their error . If you do that, then according to the Bible you are still to suffer the penalty for it. The year 2000 issue is just one of dozens, and it's one of the least significant, I only raised it because you implied they had made no prediction for 2000. I proved they did, and you - as always - just switch issues to claiming "well, it doesn't matter because later they said something different". It does matter, according to the Bible, if you make a prediction and call it the ' Creator's Promise " because you speak in his name and make of fool of him when "His promise" fails. This is the very definition of "false Prophesy". But you don't care about that, and you don't care about what the Bible says about it - you just care about maintaining your way of life as a follower of the Society, so you defend them no matter how much you have compromise yourself, as does Debator. In this, you are exactly like the members of 'Christendom' you deride.

You said: A past mistaken viewpoint does not have indefinite implications for Jehovah's Organization.

Really? Actually it must, because if, as the Society claims, past accurate viewpoints earned them the place once and for all as "God's Organization", then past "mistaken viewpoints" must also be capable of disqualifying them - just as they claim it disqualified every other religion.

And so, this False Prophesying, especially that which took place at the very same time as what you call "God's Organization" was supposedly chosen as such, is vitally important .

You can't act as a false prophet, issuing repeated false predictions in God's name AND AT THE SAME TIME be chosen as "God's Organization".

You can't be appointed, in 1919, as "The Faithful Slave" AND AT THE SAME TIME get the slave's identity wrong, 'worship' (the WT's word) a single man as 'The Slave', and claim he was appointed decades before 1914.

You can't give "Food at the proper time" AND AT THE SAME TIME have your timing be inaccurate by 40 years and preach totally improper "times" for everything, such as 1874.

You can't be the "Wise Virgin", "awake" at the time of the "Master's Arrival" who "hears the cry" when he arrives - in 1919 - AND AT THE SAME TIME preach as fact revealed by God that the Master arrived in 1874.

And because these things can't be true at the same time, because they can't be the "Faithful Slave" or the "Wise Virgins", they therefore CANNOT be "God's Organization". To claim otherwise makes an absurdity and a mockery of Scripture.

These facts sever the root of the Society and expose it's claims for authority - all stemming from 1914-1919 - as pure fantasy, and impossible, Scripturally speaking. So even if they did repent of their errors LATER (which as their attempts up to this day to slyly cover over those errors shows, is not the case) it still means that they could not have qualified THEN and consequently have no authority as the "Only true religion", "God's sole channel of communication" or "God's Organization" NOW.

So what are they? Just another man-made religion, error ridden and fallible, but with delusions and claims of grandeur and enough doctrine that you happen to agree with to impress you. That's all they are. That's what the facts show.

You said: If I was to follow your example and disband from the organization and later ask you why God has become illusionary, what would you tell me?

I'd say that if by leaving an Organization your "God has become illusory", then this shows that, in fact, your God was the Organization all along, even if you didn't realize it, and that you now need to recognize that and rectify it. I'd tell you that because your faith had been in an Organization and it's human leaders you have no real personal relationship with God or his Son, no root, and so of course, when that institution is no longer there to prop up your faith, your faith fails, because it was not well rooted, and you were walking "by sight". I'd say this former form of worship was not spiritual, but fleshly. I'd tell you that many people in the Bible had no large 'Organization' but they thrived on a direct spiritual relationship and I'd suggest you learn to do the same, and find others who do the same. There are many.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Consfearacy, all you are demonstrating there is that the Society completely contradicts themselves. You know, because you were shown, that the Society has also said the EXACT OPPOSITE!

"...In the all-important matter of worshiping God, it is likewise true that sincerity alone does not guarantee that God is pleased with our worship. We may conscientiously believe we are doing well in this regard, yet we may be deluding ourselves."---- Watchtower January 1, 1964 p. 4

"A true prophet is one who is faithfully proclaiming what is written in the Bible....... It matters not whether he proclaims his message with deliberate, willful and malicious intent to deceive, or whether he is the blinded and deluded dupe of Satan and hence unwittingly used of him. In either case, he is a false prophet and hence the agent of Satan ".----Watchtower May 15, 1930, p 154

"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying." (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).

So your defense is that the Society contradicts itself Well done! What a surprise that as the internet became widely available and the hidden truth of their history of "false prophesying" could be discovered and exposed by anyone they decide it's time to completely change their judgement. What a shock! All this shows is that when they are caught out by their own judgments, they are willing to say anything to try to excuse themselves. They make it up as they go along, to suit themselves, because they are False Prophets. This self serving 'new light' from the Society directly contradicting their former statements and which - conveniently - serves to try to excuse their own career as 'False Prophets' has nothing to do with the Scriptures, which, like their own literature, says the exact opposite.

Thanks for highlighting this!

PS Why I highlighted 2000 as related to the Society using dates and to "False Prophesy" is because said of the Watchtower: "This magazine builds up confidence in the CREATOR'S PROMISE of a peaceful and secure "new world" before the generation that saw the EVENTS OF 1914 passes away".

This is a false prediction in God's name.

They also said: " The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." (Watchtower, January 1, 1989, p. 12, "

Seeing as they believe the good news is preached until the end - "and then the end will come" - stating that the preaching work would end "in our 20th century" places the year 2000 as a marker date, beyond which, this system could not pass. It's a prediction.

Again though, I see you think finding a a place where the Watchtower contradicts themselves somehow exonerates them. LOL. No, it condemns them further.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Debator, you’re a liar.

You know full well that every pitiful objection you and Consfearacy have raised as an excuse has been thoroughly rebutted with Scriptural evidence and direct quotes from the Society’s own literature many times in the pages of this thread. You even disagree with Consfearacy! You can’t even keep the story straight between the two of you! He insists the identifying mark of a ‘False Prophet is being a deliberate liar. You insist it is specifically claiming inspiration. Make your minds up!

You said: “Deut 18 makes it clear the false prophet has to be claiming to say inspired Words directly from God”

Actually the verse says nothing of the sort: "But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him".

I don't see any references there to a prophet's specific claims of "Inspired words directly from God"! It never mentions what specific claims the prophet made, only that he made a prediction and rendered it “In God’s name” which is very different and far more general than ”claiming to say inspired Words directly from God”. The Society can be directly proven to have claimed to speak in God’s name, as you know, and of making false predictions. Thus they’re completely condemned by Deut 18:20-22

You have no case! And your only defense is to ignore the evidence and lie, hoping that some poor dupes won’t bother to read evidence on the previous pages and will simply believe your drivel. Yor truly are from your lying ‘father’ the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

So, one more time, for those who haven’t read the previous pages....

You wrongly claimed that a false prophet must directly and specifically claim ‘inspiration’ before they could be rightly condemned as a ‘false prophet’. That, as we showed, was entirely unscriptural, and even goes against the Society’s own teachings, but we played along. You were shown that nowehere in the Bible does any false prophet ever use the word ‘inspiration’, (never mind this supposedly being a consistent rule and unfailing ‘identifyer’ as you lyingly claimed), yet these ones in Scripture were identified as false prophets nevertheless . Therefore, the Society would likewise NOT have to use the word ‘inspired’ to be identified as a false prophet, they would just have to state or imply that their interpretations or teachings originated with God, and thus lay claim to the authority of ‘inspiration’ but without actually using that word, just as Biblical False Prophets did not use it.

This is not actually what the Bible says - but we played along with your demands. The Bible shows a much wider definition of ‘False Prophet’ but you were hoping that by attempting to narrow it, you could get the Society off the hook. But no.

So, by YOUR unscriptural definition:

Obvious claim of ‘inspiration’, without the word ‘inspiration' being used’ - just as Biblical 'False Prophets" did not use it - and of speaking in God's name.

"The Watchtower is not the instrument of any man or set of any of men, nor is it published according to the whims of men. No man's opinion is expressed in the Watchtower ". (Watchtower, Nov. 1 1931 p. 327)

"In all his (Russell's) warnings he claimed no originality . He said that he could never have written his books himself. It all came from God , through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 7, p. 387.)

"The writer does not give his opinion. No human interpretation of scripture is advanced ." (Reconciliation, 1928, p. 6)

" The Watchtower is the channel which Jehovah, our God, is using at this time." (Watchtower, August 1, 1930 p. 239)

Cross-examination of Frederick W. Franz in the case of Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS, 1943, Sections #2596-2597, p. 866:

Q. At any rate, Jehovah God is now the editor of the paper, is that right?
A. He is today the editor of the paper .

Q. How long has He been editor of the paper?
A. Since its inception he has been guiding it .
Cross-examination of Nathan Homer Knorr in the case of Olin Moyle v. WTB&TS, 1943, Section #4421, p. 1474.
Q. In fact, it is set forth directly as God's Word, isn't it?
A. Yes, as His word.

Q. Without any qualification whatsoever?
A. That is right.
"This chronology is not of man, but of God . Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated , present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct...." (Watchtower, July 15, 1922)

1931 "Today the children of Zion need no extraneous proof that the spiritual food and understanding of the prophecies they have comes from God . They know that no man or men could provide such food. No man or men on earth attempt to lay claim that lay of these truths proceed from man . (Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1931, p. 328)

Russell regarding his chronology predictions, now abandoned as false. said, “ It is beyond the breadth and depth of human thought and therefore cannot be of human origin .” (Studies In The Scriptures, 1889, vol. 2, p. 15)

" If we were following a ma n undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness , neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from god must be like its author. a new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. new light never extinguishes older light , but adds to it." (Watchtower Feb. 1, 1881, Reprints p. 188)
Elevating the Literature to the status of the inspired Scripture, which is “alive and exerts power”, but claiming even greater spiritual power: “"If the 6 volumes of 'Scripture Studies' are practically the Bible topically arranged, with Bible proof-texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes- 'The Bible' in an arranged form . That is to say, they are not merely comments on the Bible, but they are practically the Bibleitself...Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself , but we see also that if anyone lays the 'Scripture Studies' ... after he has read them for 10 years-if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone...out experience shows that within 2 years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he has merely read the 'S.S.' with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years. " (Watchtower, Sept 15, 1910)
And there are many, many more such quotes. They repeatedly and explicitly claim ‘inspiration’ but without using the word inspiration, and spoke in God's name, just as false prophets condemned in the Bible didn’t use the word inspiration. Even when using your unscripturally narrow definition, the Society condemns themselves.
You have no case.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Thanks Wasblind

But let's face it, the subtext was already there, I just gave it a 'voice'.

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Essan

Here's my inserted commentary for this desperate attempt to cling on to a Bible Study who appears to be too clued up for the JW's:

Please Dennis, don’t let the new understanding [changed doctrine - again] of “this generation” stumble you. I’m sure there will be some sifting and refining of true Christians now on this issue [it's God's fault. He talks nonsense to test us, to see if you will still follow him even when he talks nonsense]. Please continue with your Bible study. [Our Literature - whatever you do don't just study the Bible] I hope you will progress to baptism while there is yet time. [Join us or die!]

I stumbled too on certain teachings … [Some facts scared the crap out of me once] but when I returned to the congregation in 2008 I resolved to never let it happen again. [Bad facts! Bad!] I will repeat the reason WHY. As I said to you earlier on the Friday Question page, a brother from New York Bethel said it similarly to me in 1987.

"It’s not important that we have a complete understanding of everything [Forget what you heard on the internet! Don't let the facts confuse you! Who cares if we make no sense? Just accept what you're told. We do, why should you be any different?]. What’s important is that we put our complete trust in Jehovah, Jesus and the Faithful Slave ['Slave", to her = "Governing Body" = "put our complete trust in... 12 old men" = Disaster). Our faith in Jehovah and his sure promises [promises, as interpreted - wrongly - and added to - unscripturally - by the aforementioned old men], as well as our desire to serve him fully ['serve' as interpreted - wrongly - by the aforementioned old men. 'Serve' as in unbearable, unscriptural pointless burden], should not require that we perfectly understand every single point. [Stop thinking and researching, damnit!] If this were the case, then we can be sure that Satan would always use that against us — Satan would make sure that we always have some unresolved issue in front of us, distracting us from serving Jehovah fully![Satan is responsible for the facts that are hindering your acceptance of our myths! Satan is the Master of Facts! And facts are the enemy of our "Truth"] We can see that in these “last days” Jehovah has given us increased light [constantly changing and contradictory doctrine] and a richness of understanding [we have mountains of literature], such that there is no need for any of us to “struggle,” nor is there a need to unnecessarily delay in serving Jehovah wholeheartedly [Stop waiting until you understand before you accept! Understanding is the enemy of compliance! Once you learn fully and understand then you won't want to join us!]. Instead, we should be most thankful and grateful for Jehovah’s undeserved loving kindness in providing the ransom sacrifice for our benefit. [Join the Organization for Jesus, or he'll cry! He died so that you could obey 12 old men in Brooklyn!] It is only because of this undeserved kindness that we can have a close relationship with Jehovah NOW, and the possibility of everlasting life in his new system of things. [Join us or die!] This is what we should be focusing on, not whether we understand everything perfectly. [Stop thinking - you should be too scared of dying to think!] It is okay to question, yes, [It's really not, it's very frustrating, can't you tell? We'll soon put a stop to that after you're baptized.] and we can be assured that, as we continue to seek for understanding, Jehovah will richly reward us with discernment and contentment of heart [Join us and then later, when it's too late, and we've indoctrinated your family, and we've GOT you, then you can face the fact that we have no answers but dare not make a fuss, because if you do your family will never speak to you again] (Phil. 1:8-11; John 4:23, 24), but we should not let it be prolonged, nor let it distract us from our real purpose in life, which is the doing of God’s will [God's, The Society's, same difference... look, just shut the **** up and get in that Pool!].