Nice catch wasblind. :)
This page neatly sums up the issues too
Posts by Essan
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34We are not false prophets
by Cook My Socks UK inbelow is the outline for a talk on the service meeting this week, i guess to help ones to answer the objection / accusation - how would you refute, if this reasoning was used by a jw at your door?.
have not jehovahs witnesses made errors in their teachings?.
jehovahs witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets.
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34
We are not false prophets
by Cook My Socks UK inbelow is the outline for a talk on the service meeting this week, i guess to help ones to answer the objection / accusation - how would you refute, if this reasoning was used by a jw at your door?.
have not jehovahs witnesses made errors in their teachings?.
jehovahs witnesses do not claim to be inspired prophets.
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Essan
1. "Jehovah's Witnesses, do not claim to be inspired Prophets"
- They have claimed to be a prophet (see article above). So what kind of prophet were they claiming to be if not an "inspired prophet"? Does the Bible describe inspired and uninspired prophets? No. It's described prophets and false prophets. They have invented an unscriptural category of prophet to escape identification as a 'false prophet'
- They have claimed to be inspired. If you look up the word inspired, they completely claim the definition just without using the word. Instead they use phrases like "spirit-led", "spirit-directed", "channel of communication" and "God's Channel". Historically, they have also explicitly claimed the Watchtower to contain only God's words, not those of men. In short, they have long claimed inspiration.
- The line "Jehovah's Witnesses, do not claim to be inspired Prophets" is a red herring. They are implying that this contrasts with claims made by false prophets in the Bible. In fact, Biblical false prophets don't explicitly make the claim to be inspired either and this is not a Scriptural identifying mark of a 'false prophet'. Biblical 'false prophets' just presumptuously made false predictions/proclamations in God's name. Their lack of making the direct claim to being inspired did not save these Biblical false prophets from being identified and punished, and neither does it save the Watchtower Society. They have made countless predictions/proclamations in God's name. This is the Biblical (OT) definition of a "false prophet". As we'll see they also fully meet the NT definition.
2. They have made mistakes. Like the apostles of Jesus Christ, they have at times had some wrong expectations.—Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6.
- The Apostles sometimes had incorrect ideas - however they did not publish them globally - as fact and as required belief - in God's name, nor did they falsely predict and preach the End multiple times. There is a vast different. Actually, there is one clear identifying mark for 'false prophets' after the first century and which Christians who believe these are the last days should use as a clear guide to identifying them, and that is falsely proclaiming the return of Christ. Matt 24:23-28. No other religion has such a long career of falsely proclaiming or predicting Christ's return as The Watchtower Society, thus they completely embody the NT definition of "False Prophet" that is relevant to our time and of which Jesus warned.
3. Matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed have been relatively minor when compared with the vital Bible truths that they have discerned and publicized.
- This presumes that the 'vital Bible truths' are true, but seeing as JW teaching changes so often and they have preached so many false dates and interpretations, confidence in their 'Bible truths' is unwarranted. At least one of these listed "truths", the 1914 doctrine, is demonstrably false. Also, predicting and preaching the end of the world - Armageddon - multiple times and insisting that generations now long dead would "never die", or that others (now in middle age), should not marry or have children in their youth, should not bother with a career, education or any preparation for their future and should "face the fact" that they would never reach their teens - all this, and it's damaging repercussions - is not "trivial".
4. Another factor to consider regarding the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses is this: Have these truly uplifted people morally? Are those who adhere to these teachings outstanding in their communities because of their honesty? Is their family life beneficially influenced by applying these teachings? Jesus said that his disciples would be readily identified because of having love among themselves. (John 13:35) Is this quality outstanding among Jehovah’s Witnesses? We let the facts speak for themselves.
- Actually, there are irrelevant to the identification of a "false prophet". If you prophesy falsely, you are a false prophet, and such claims as these are no defense, even if true. In fact, Jesus warned of those who would make such defenses, pointing to their supposed good works to attempt to escape judgement for their sin:
"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' - Matthew 7:22, 23
- Actually, JW's are not noted for their love, either within or without the congregation. They mercilessly condemn, judging and handing out what are supposedly God's condemnations to others, rather than leaving it to Him. They wrote, with brazen hypocrisy, dismissive of the rafter in their own eye:
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date....Yet nothing happened. The "end" did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. (Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 23, italics in original).
So they condemn themselves out of their own mouth. Later self-serving attempts to contradict their own clear statements will not save them. As Jesus warned:
"D o not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:1
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16
They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them, WT Study Article (4/15/72)
by VM44 in'they shall know that a prophet was among them'.
so, does jehovah have a prophet to help them, to.
warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?.
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Essan
Yes, they claim to be a prophet, but if they make false predictions/proclamations they can't be a 'false' prophet, don't you know that?
Why can't they?
Because they can't!
But didn't they explicitly say in their literature that anyone one predicts armageddon wrongly is "guilty of false prophesying"?
Yes, but obviously they didn't mean themselves, they meant other religions that do it!
Who can argue with airtight reasoning like that?
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334
All the accusations- and no substance....how SHOCKING!
by theMadJW inare there pretenders in our brotherhood- as in all religion- that do what is evil?.
yes.. have we made stupid guesses about some of the prophecies, as all churches do?.
yes.. does our "organization" make mistakes- as, you guessed it, all do?.
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Essan
"Mad: Funny how that wasn't the case with ME; why?'
Because, Mad, you are an actual apostate. Whereas we were sincere obedient JW's, until we woke up. We actually listened to the Society, just as it demanded, until we realized it was a fraud. You clearly didn't and don't listen to them now, yet you hang on and defend JWism despite not really being part of it.
You're Mad, and your brain is already thoroughly stamped with your own particular brand of crazy, so the Society can't get real purchase on you to fully imprint their own. You are drinking your own home-brew koolaid. LOL
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269
Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper inafter reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .
i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.
so please feel free to post your experiences.
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Essan
Hi Flipper,
Agreed. But I don't think I've ever seen a worse case than this. It's monumentally frustrating to deal with but I also find it pretty terrifying to observe. I hadn't realized quite to what degree humans were capable of retarding their thinking ability, rendering otherwise potentially bright people virtual morons - at least in this context. Couple that with an even greater than usual degree of the Watchtower induced arrogant belief that JW's have nothing to learn and everything to teach and we have these epic, evidence free, meaningless epistles which make no real point and hardly ever address the hard evidence presented by others, and even when they do, they show that he simply cannot comprehend the obvious implications of, well, anything really. It's pretty shocking and it's a terrible shame.
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269
Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper inafter reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .
i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.
so please feel free to post your experiences.
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Essan
Dj Eggnog: "First of all, there is a difference between Jesus' "presence" and Jesus' "coming," and I cannot make this any clear than I have made it. In my previois post, was reacting to what @Essan said"
We just categorically proved that Russell predicted that Jesus "coming" was to be in 1914.
We just categorically proved that Russell taught as fact that Christ's "presence" as King began in 1874, and that he taught that Christ's "coming" at the end of the Tribulation to destroy the wicked and rule the earth - exactly as described at 2 Thess. 1: 6-9 - would be in 1914.
This matter is settled.
Your claim was absolutely wrong - again. This has been proven repeatedly, to redundancy. You asked for the evidence and you got exactly what you asked for.
What does it say about you that you simply ignore this, and even post what I quote above, acting as if nothing has happened, after seeing a mountain of incontrovertible evidence? And the thing is, you have done this several times in just this one thread. Unless you lazily asked for us to provide you the evidence - which you could have found yourself with one click of the link I gave you ages ago - and then when we did provide it you didn't bother to read it. Did you read it? Do you care about the facts? The evidence is 8 posts above this one, on this page. Read it and have the humility and honesty to correct your (latest) false claim.
How is anyone supposed to take you seriously or think that you care one jot about truth when you act like this? You personify intellectual dishonesty.
Unbelievable.
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269
Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?
by flipper inafter reading on the way out's thread about his mom explaining the generation overlap to him it kicked this idea into my head to make this thread .
i thought it would be helpful to see if anybody here has had jw relatives or friends try to explain this " generation overlap " theory to you as a faded or inactive witness and what happened in the conversations.
so please feel free to post your experiences.
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Essan
Bttt - for those who wrongly claim Russell did not predict Christ's "coming" for 1914. :)
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24
cant believe how much i have learn in a week!
by bez inthis site has opened my eyes.. i am suprised as a one time 'do gooder witness' that so many on this site are still 'active' jw's!
and all the time i was a witness i really did not think that anyone would dare even look at such a site!!!!!.
i am also suprised at the number of people in the same situation as me, and the number of people who actually feel they have something to live for now they have left the org!.
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Essan
Welcome Bez,
This place is a really great learning tool and an excellent support for those newly awakened to the lies and errors of the Society.
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334
All the accusations- and no substance....how SHOCKING!
by theMadJW inare there pretenders in our brotherhood- as in all religion- that do what is evil?.
yes.. have we made stupid guesses about some of the prophecies, as all churches do?.
yes.. does our "organization" make mistakes- as, you guessed it, all do?.
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Essan
MadJW, you might enjoy this recent post. Apparently JWN has considerable substance and considerable effect on sincere questioning JW's:
"Can't believe how much I have learned in a week!
This site has OPENED my eyes.... I am also suprised at the number of people in the same situation as me, and the number of people who actually feel they have something to live for now they have left the org!
Just had to write this, as i am actually a little bit obsessed with this site after only being a member a week!"
Wow, isn't that just great MadJW?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/198402/1/cant-believe-how-much-i-have-learn-in-a-week
Nice to know this is the effect JWN's exposure of the Society is having on countless JW's day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day, after day.....
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334
All the accusations- and no substance....how SHOCKING!
by theMadJW inare there pretenders in our brotherhood- as in all religion- that do what is evil?.
yes.. have we made stupid guesses about some of the prophecies, as all churches do?.
yes.. does our "organization" make mistakes- as, you guessed it, all do?.
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Essan
MadJW, I see you constantly making claims, but never providing evidence.
Whereas from other posters in their threads I see them providing reams of hard evidence for their claims.
You're just hot air.
You're like a one line Billboard Advert for the JW's.
And your attacks on JWN are just as empty. You are exactly what your thread titlle says:
"All the accusations and no substance"