Posts by zannahdoll

31

For Shelby, Tec and others who believe in Christ but not necessarily the bible...

by elderelite in

i read with great interest that some believe in christ but notnecessarily the authenticity of the bible... could you please elaborate on that?

i have to admit i am very interested in where people have ended up after leaving the wt.

i am on that road and enjoy seeing where people have followed it.

SERIOUS QUESTION: just how many demons will fit inside a person?

by Terry in

are demons big or little?

do they take up space?.

do they infest our cells and peer out like they are trapped inside a jelly bean?.

zannahdoll

You can see the fertility of the human mind in the absence of data!
...
Thanks everyone. I'm in awe of the certainty, confidence and fecundity of your minds!

Terry: I thought you said theists don't think?

284

To new Christians on JWN

by brotherdan in

i wanted to make a few comments to those of you that have recently begun to question or have already left the wt and made their way onto this site.

this site is a great resource to learn how others are coping with leaving the organization and moving on into a fulfilling life.. i wanted to write this post because i think reading something like this would've been helpful to me to understand where a lot of people that comment on this site are coming from.

you are going to hear from a wide range of people that have moved on to a diverse range of beliefs.

zannahdoll

I read the first post and skimmed the rest, so I apologize if someone said what I am trying to say already...

First: I really like, and agree, with what Leolaia says here:

People obey laws and give themselves to their communities and give their lives to help others regardless of what theistic beliefs they do or do not have. Psychopaths, sexual predators, cheats like Bernie Madoff, etc. are the kind of people that today say in their hearts "there is no God" in the same sense intended by the psalmist.

In the Bible Jesus gives us two commandments: 1) to love God with all your heart, soul, might and 2) to love your neighbor as yourself. For me: I believe God exists and he is there whether a person believes in God or not. God is inside all of His creation. And to think of that really the first commandment (which is really hard to do even for a theist) is the same/explained or clarified by the second commandment. Further to love your neighbor as yourself presupposes that we love ourselves. So, in my way of thinking: if people are loving others then they are in good terms with God. If people are acting unkind or hateful then they are not. Basically: it is more important how we act. What we believe can form how we act (every deed was first conceived as a thought)... however in the end it is what we do that defines us. (I think I'm quoting a batman movie now...)

I also feel: if people do not come to church what is it about church they do not like? If people don't want to be Christian, what is it about Christians that they do not like? Instead of seeing the atheist in the wrong, what are the theists doing wrong that make Christianity so unappealing? If we represent God, how are we misrepresenting him that people don't want anything to do with Him?

Reading your post, brotherdan, I can see that it was well intentioned, however, from another Christian's perspective: it DOES have a condescending tone. If I were an atheist I would not want to talk to you. You escape saying "hey, it's not me who says this, it is the Bible..." but you are putting it into context. It is good to remember the story of The Good Samaritan. A man needed help on the day that happened to be the Sabbath. Holy Men passed the man who needed help and did not help him because they too escaped the loving responsibility by hiding behind the law: can't work on the Sabbath. It was a man who wasn't holy, who didn't follow the religious practices at all, a Samaritan (which was highly controversial person in the story) who didn't have the Jewish Laws who stopped to help.

I saw Terry and VoidEater act in what I consider a Christian matter saying you are entitled to believe what you want, let's have peace.

Anyway, thats how I see it. I don't think you were intentionally condescending, but we have to stop and think of your audience. You know who will read it. Are you acting how Jesus would? Is it really welcoming conversation? Or is it telling them who is wrong? I'm sure I am condescending often, it is easy to do when we feel we know what is right. I think it is wonderful that you bring a Christian perspective... I'm here with you on that - we just have to remember that when we say we are Christians who we are representing and how we can bring people closer to Him or drive them further away from Him.

God Bless you.

8

One of my heroes: Farrell Till

by Terry in

endless hours of delicious reading!.

i share with you one of my intellectual heroes: farrell till.. till was a minister whose efforts to understand what he believed led him to discover everything wasn't the way it had been represented to him in seminary.

he was a missionary and preacher for many years before he decided he could not put his life behind distortions.. he turned to disseminating what he had discovered about the misrepresentations in christianity.. he is a an earlier version of randy at freeminds!.

zannahdoll

Dude, Terry, I'm searching your posts because I have taken an interest in you but I belong to a book club, plus I have a huge other stack of books to read for school, etc... not only did I not do any of the reading, I didn't even read the whole list posted here. Why don't you provide Cliff's Notes - or: Terry's Notes

31

The Apostles KNEW (didn't know): which is it??? Something fishy!

by Terry in

bibliolaters preach that the bible is an inerrant work of unity and harmony so perfect that it can be explained only by the doctrine of verbal inspiration.

it makes great sermon fodder to feed to gullible pulpit audiences, but this discrepancy in what the apostles didn't know but should have known about an impending resurrection of their leader is a glitch in the bible that must be explained before rational people can accept the inerrancy theory.. john's account of the resurrection has peter and another disciple running to the empty tomb after hearing from mary magdalene that the body of jesus was gone.

the unnamed disciple, outrunning peter, arrived at the tomb first and waited:.

zannahdoll

tec:

If the bible was in perfect unity, would you believe what it said then? Or would you take that as a sign that it was obviously doctored.

Awesome point. In criminal cases when the stories are so perfect they appear to be scripted so people are caught in lies.

cyberjesus:

if there was evidence that the bible was the word of God then i would believe it and I bet ya Terry would too. :-)

You can always find away to explain something away.

31

The Apostles KNEW (didn't know): which is it??? Something fishy!

by Terry in

bibliolaters preach that the bible is an inerrant work of unity and harmony so perfect that it can be explained only by the doctrine of verbal inspiration.

it makes great sermon fodder to feed to gullible pulpit audiences, but this discrepancy in what the apostles didn't know but should have known about an impending resurrection of their leader is a glitch in the bible that must be explained before rational people can accept the inerrancy theory.. john's account of the resurrection has peter and another disciple running to the empty tomb after hearing from mary magdalene that the body of jesus was gone.

the unnamed disciple, outrunning peter, arrived at the tomb first and waited:.

zannahdoll

Terry, you say:

Bibliolaters preach that the Bible is an inerrant work of unity and harmony so perfect that it can be explained only by the doctrine of verbal inspiration.

Who are these bibliolaters specifically? That isn't what I was taught. Inspired by God, written by MAN = lots of room for discrepancies. My understanding is that the message is what is inerrant.

But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass ( Luke 24:21 ).

To me this scripture is stating that they are talking and he says something like "so yeah: all this happened 3 days ago" NOT that I knew these things would happen in 3 days.

You do mention that Jesus tells them what is going to happen repeatedly. However he told many parables and stories. And He did incredible things. But the people living with him continued to doubt (and not just that He would rise in 3 days).

Examples:

Peter walks on water. He literally did it. (Matthew 14:25-33) Even though he did it, he KNEW he could do it, he then started to sink.

Another story with Peter: Jesus tells him he will deny him 3 times before the cock crows twice. You think Peter would double think denying him and be on the watch-out for what he says and listing for a crow. (Mark 14:66-72)

Doubting Thomas, Didymus, had all the apostles, whom he knew well and trusted, TELL him that they witnessed the risen Jesus. With all the heads ups that Jesus gave him before the crucifixion and now his best buds who he had traveled with all this time following Jesus tell him what they saw and he STILL doesn't believe it, he says, until he sees Jesus for himself. (He wanted evidence, a little like some of my favorite atheists ) (John 20:24-29)

My point with all these examples, Terry, is that you are not teaching the Bible reader anything new. Reading the Gospels you can see that yes, the apostles knew better, but then when it came down to it they really didn't know. I see it as this:

A few times I have shown a few friends/loved ones who are older how to do things such as their own blog, help with a website, etc. And I'm talking simple stuff. Like cutting and pasting a link and forwarding it in an e-mail... This is a painful process, that on my part takes a great deal of patience. I can show them something that I deem incredibly simple maybe 20 times or more. I know they aren't stupid, I've seen them problem solve other things and achieve great things that I don't comprehend and I don't know how to even begin. However the things that I help my loved ones to do I remember learning after someone told me how maybe once or twice... or I am mostly self taught (gotta love Google) - I show them how they can look up most their basic computer questions on google too. They need a teacher. And STILL: They just don't get it!!! Just thinking about it brings the frustration back. It takes an hour or more to show them (what if I just did it myself would be done in 1 minute). Finally, FINALLY: they get it. I make them do it about three times without my help to make sure they can do it on their own. They can do it. And they can do it. Success! Then the next day, or a week later I get an e-mail or phone call "can you help me with this again? how do you do it?" WTF!!! This is when I feel I need to learn to be a good Christian so I take a deep breath and say "Yes, of course I'll help, any time!" or sometimes I just avoid them. (actually, thinking of this I feel for my mother, I know it had to be a pain in the ass to teach me how to drive stick - boy was that a nightmare).

What I'm getting at: hearing things a bunch of times: we still forget. I have a friend who lives in this neighborhood of cul-de-sac mazes. She has lived in the same house for a few years, I visit a couple times a month every month. I STILL break out my GPS. (what can I say: I'm your typical woman driver). Maybe ONE DAY I will know where she lives without the help of a device.

THEN: just because we KNOW something doesn't mean that we UNDERSTAND IT...

AND FURTHER: because we UNDERSTAND something doesn't mean that we BELIEVE it.

AND EVEN FURTHER: because we BELIEVE doesn't mean we DO NOT CONTINUE TO DOUBT

LASTLY: even when we BELIEVE all the time it isn't always easy to PUT INTO PRACTICE or have a momentary relapse.

SO: to answer your question: The Apostles Knew (Didn't Know): Yes. It is both.

67

SERIOUS QUESTION: just how many demons will fit inside a person?

by Terry in

are demons big or little?

do they take up space?.

do they infest our cells and peer out like they are trapped inside a jelly bean?.

zannahdoll

sooner7nc that's really funny.

21

oh, what to believe! (everyone welcome, atheists and agnostics especially)

by zannahdoll in

i was invited by a friend to view a thread that was 7 months old and i made my first posts in that thread but i think, being an old thread, i may miss out on talking to some of you.

so, for a fresh start: i'm going to repost a few thoughts and start a few new thoughts.

first: let me introduce myself: (don't make fun!

zannahdoll

moshe

Interesting. Thanks for your post and for answering with your reasoning. The thing is that for a theist paradoxes are not a problem; I'll explain below.

Quit worrying about Theism.

Also I don't worry about Theism... or do I? I don't even know if I understand your statement. I don't see it as a problem to work out. I have my doubts about God, every theist does, and then, due to faith or personal experiences or due to trusting those around us, theists DO believe in spite of doubts. I worry more about the doubts, but then when I believe it is no worry at all, instead it is a delight. At any result: you too worry about it to some capacity or you would not have felt moved to comment. Any time you talk about the lack of existence of God or why God is not probable YOU are worrying about Theism.

So: about paradoxes (here is something I posted in another thread; so excuse the broken record for skipping here, the end I changed to make it relevant to this thread and the Crocodile paradox):

In reading some beginner theological concepts and listening to some speakers I have learned that time does not exist. We only have NOW. We never experience yesterday nor tomorrow. We have memories of the past and plans for the future... but really all we ever know is this current moment in time... which, if carefully thought about, does time then exist? Or is it simply a way for us to file and compute our life - to make sense of it?
In a philosophy class I learned about a philosopher, that I can't remember his name for the life of me, who in a similar manner questioned the reality of space. He said something to the effect of distance can always be divided in half, and so you should always be able to divide an area... mathematically we can continue to divide and divide: we get into negative numbers: however when it comes to physically going half the distance, and half of that distance, and half of that... so on and so forth... there comes a point when the only distance is standing still and you can no longer cut it in half. You can only cut a pie in half only so many times before it disappears into our bellies. [I'm not sure if I'm expressing this guy correctly, I don't even remember his name...]
As a result: these things bring into question: do time and space exist? Plato gave us the Allegory of The Cave. [The story goes something similar to this: There are children tied up inside a cave facing a wall of the cave. Behind them is the entrance/exit of the cave and behind the entrance are people carrying objects and behind them a fire. The fire casts shadows of the people onto the wall. All the children see or know are the shadows of the people and objects that are cast by the fire behind them. The children think that these shadows ARE the people and objects themselves. Finally they are set free: they now see the actual people and objects (not just the shadows) and they are in shock of reality. And having been in a cave the light of the fire and light of day are overpowering. It turns out the children had no idea of what was real due to their limited capacity to see and learn.] There are pop-movies like the Matrix and Inception that also show pseudo worlds. The Matrix was the whole world complete with things as large as continents and seas and people were connected/wired up to see and experience the same places and things. None of it took up any actual space. Inception shows dreams within dreams, worlds within worlds. None of them taking up any actual space: only a person's imagination to create a whole world. These movies remind me of the children in the caves with their conceptions of what is real and waking up is like walking out of the cave.
All this said: if time and space do not exist except for us to categorize our lives and have understanding with a sequence of events... it could be our matrix made up for us. Thus said: none of it REALLY takes up any space except what our minds imagine and project...

And so: to bring this to relevance to the topic at hand of paradoxes here are a few correlations: Our world and reality may be such as the simulated reality in the Matrix and as such: the dream state in Inception. Paradoxes in these worlds exist. Just as it is a paradox that we can continue to cut things in half mathematically but in reality we cannot.

67

SERIOUS QUESTION: just how many demons will fit inside a person?

by Terry in

are demons big or little?

do they take up space?.

do they infest our cells and peer out like they are trapped inside a jelly bean?.

zannahdoll

Terry, I'll bite... (you make me want to study my bible better!)

I kinda like GromitSK takes. Didn't think of the owner of the pigs... I suppose better pigs or loss of livestock then the loss of a human being to demons.

I have also read that legions of angels are watching over us. Similar concept I would think.

In reading some beginner theological concepts and listening to some speakers I have learned that time does not exist. We only have NOW. We never experience yesterday nor tomorrow. We have memories of the past and plans for the future... but really all we ever know is this current moment in time... which, if carefully thought about, does time then exist? Or is it simply a way for us to file and compute our life - to make sense of it?

In a philosophy class I learned about a philosopher, that I can't remember his name for the life of me, who in a similar manner questioned the reality of space. He said something to the effect of distance can always be divided in half, and so you should always be able to divide an area... mathematically we can continue to divide and divide: we get into negative numbers: however when it comes to physically going half the distance, and half of that distance, and half of that... so on and so forth... there comes a point when the only distance is standing still and you can no longer cut it in half. You can only cut a pie in half only so many times before it disappears into our bellies. [I'm not sure if I'm expressing this guy correctly, I don't even remember his name...]

As a result: these things bring into question: do time and space exist? Plato gave us the Allegory of The Cave. [The story goes something similar to this: There are children tied up inside a cave facing a wall of the cave. Behind them is the entrance/exit of the cave and behind the entrance are people carrying objects and behind them a fire. The fire casts shadows of the people onto the wall. All the children see or know are the shadows of the people and objects that are cast by the fire behind them. The children think that these shadows ARE the people and objects themselves. Finally they are set free: they now see the actual people and objects (not just the shadows) and they are in shock of reality. And having been in a cave the light of the fire and light of day are overpowering. It turns out the children had no idea of what was real due to their limited capacity to see and learn.] There are pop-movies like the Matrix and Inception that also show pseudo worlds. The Matrix was the whole world complete with things as large as continents and seas and people were connected/wired up to see and experience the same places and things. None of it took up any actual space. Inception shows dreams within dreams, worlds within worlds. None of them taking up any actual space: only a person's imagination to create a whole world. These movies remind me of the children in the caves with their conceptions of what is real and waking up is like walking out of the cave.

All this said: if time and space do not exist except for us to categorize our lives and have understanding with a sequence of events... it could be our matrix made up for us. Thus said: none of it REALLY takes up any space except what our minds imagine and project... And so: to bring this to relevance to the topic at hand of how many demons can fit in a person or pigs here are a few correlations: Our world and reality in the Gospels is to our world and simulated reality in the Matrix as to the dream state in Inception. Jesus is to the Gospels as Neo (Keanu Reeves Character) is to the Matrix and as Cobb (Leonardo DiCaprio's Character) is in the dream world. And the demons in the Gospels are like the Agents in the Matrix and like Mal (Cobb's wife) in Inception.

Thus: There can be a ton of demons in one person or in the pigs...

ha ha: I have to laugh at myself because I don't know if ending an answer with pop-movies like the Matrix and Inception is a way to answer a serious question... oh well. I like stories.

21

oh, what to believe! (everyone welcome, atheists and agnostics especially)

by zannahdoll in

i was invited by a friend to view a thread that was 7 months old and i made my first posts in that thread but i think, being an old thread, i may miss out on talking to some of you.

so, for a fresh start: i'm going to repost a few thoughts and start a few new thoughts.

first: let me introduce myself: (don't make fun!

zannahdoll

Thanks, Terry. I think you are the first one who gave me a reason as to why you think the way you do. I find that talking to my atheist friend has become a bit of a game of semantics and it makes it difficult to communicate.

Sadly, I agree with you when you say this:

The first thing that happens when people start talking about God is that a wall goes up between them called I'M RIGHT/YOU'RE WRONG.
And that is just a hop and skip away from disrespecting the humanity of our species.

That is true for all creeds and lack there of. It's a shame that we do this to one another. I think the most beautiful thing to do is try to understand another's perspective. I think there is potential to learn something from every person we meet. However, I feel, you're at fault of it too in your next line:

Belief is for people who don't want to think, in my opinion

There are many great theologians, philosophers, even scientists who promote a belief throughout history. Now, I've heard from non-theists that this is because of lack of advancement in society (lack of science/technology) and so people made up stories to fill in the cracks. Sort of a cop out. However, with all our advancements in science our knowledge only leads to further questions, more uncertainty. The more we learn the more we realize we didn't really know in the first place, I think this is a common truth for all those who love to learn, for all the philosophers... Why are their cracks that needed filling any different from our cracks that need filling? Just as an atheist will say today that they don't want to Assume God for the things that do not make sense to us so could our ancestors also say they would not make such assumptions. I don't believe they were so stupid or uncivilized... some technologies that came about in the past have been lost to us forever and we, today, have no idea (we can guess, but we don't really know) how they did it. (Stonehenge in the United Kingdom, Pyramids of Egypt and Mexico, Water Ducts of Ancient Greece, water-tight woven baskets made by American Indians)

So: is belief due to lack of thinking??? Yes, there are a great deal many differences between the religions of the world... however: it is very interesting that different cultures that did not likely interact with one another all over the world all had some sort of deity or deities. One of the reasons that keeps me believing are the similarities between all these... What I think of as Universal Truths... So: did we really invent God to fill in the blanks? Or is there a need for a God that is already present?

A genuine God could not possibly crave admiration from a corrupt species (which is how the Bible identifies humanity.) LOGICALLY an infinitely superior being would neither waste His thoughts on condemning or forgiving humanity for the very thing they are.

My understanding of God is that God = Love. I saw in another thread that you address this, and I read it, I haven't had a chance to respond to that yet... however, for the sake of what I'm about to say accept for a moment God=Love.

- When we love don't we wish to be loved in return? Our children are "lesser" in that they cannot physically do what we can, they cannot emotionally or socially deal with things the way we can, they do not have our mental capacities. Yet Mothers are excited when their babies come to them, they are happy when they get hugs and kisses from their children.

- I think it can be agreed by all: living without love is painful, awful: maybe worthless. So: to tell those around us they need to be loved and to act lovingly (be kind, do charitable acts, or at least socially civil to function in society) We tell our loved ones that they should be loving. We tell them we love them. It would make sense that what would follow is to tell them they need love.

In so doing, in line with thinking that God=Love, For God to tell people they need God would be like saying "you need love" Also: if you have a creation it would be natural to think it would resemble you. I see "made in God's Image" as being made for the purpose of loving. Further it would make sense that you would want to share that.

To me: the condemnation comes in saying that if you decide to live without love then you will not have it. (plug in "God" for love). So, by how we act (in a loving manner or not) is to determine our consequences.

This is my thinking, however, I'm not alone in thinking this: there are many greater thinkers who have come to this. Basically: we decide our hell, we decide our heaven.

So, thinking about God is futile self-delusion because we cannot know anything truly divine. That only leaves self-lies and an excuse to view your fellow man as the OTHER.

I don't know: some say that the stars and heavens are divine. Mother Nature is divine. Love is divine. These are all things that we can know... We may not fully know or understand it... but we do know it in part. And: for me: this leaves me to see my fellow man as my brother... we have a shared sense of divinity (God is in all, God is everywhere... there is a song about a God-Shaped Hole in our hearts)...

We find in idle chatter about God's Will a base abandonment of our species to supernatural hubris.

Many people find community and a sense of family when even our idle chatter is about God's Will. I have quite a few friends of over 10 years who we grew closer together because of our faith. They are what have made my life a treasure. And we have done much work to feed the hungry and help the less fortunate. So, how would you define abandonment of our species?

We learn how to see ourselves as failures, sinners, corrupt dung, worthless dregs and doomed beggars at the table of heaven.

Yes, this is true. It keeps us in check because we also learn to see ourselves as royalty: sons and daughters of the Almighty God (as Christians: brothers and sisters to Christ). We learn to see our selves as supernatural: made in God's image. We see ourselves as important: God has counted every hair on our heads. We see ourselves as spiritually connected: one body; many parts. We learn not to be materialistic because we can't take it with us and there are more important things to be concerned with (such as love)... We learn success can still come after failure, that success can conquer failure: Life after Crucifixion is the biggest example for Christians.