Somehow, I don't think Mao would have approved:
http://english.cntv.cn/2014/08/09/VIDE1407515159186661.shtml
fulltimestudent
JoinedPosts by fulltimestudent
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Interesting re-thinking of Chinese Emperors.
by fulltimestudent insomehow, i don't think mao would have approved:.
http://english.cntv.cn/2014/08/09/vide1407515159186661.shtml.
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Everything is back on track
by sp74bb inespecially to those who know me in person, i wanted to share with you my joy today.. i spoke today very long with my jw family of my position (away from the org, separated and gay), without any criticism or attack or threat.
quite an achievement.. why about this change?
parents age is moving them to see the reality of the situation.
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fulltimestudent
sp74pb
I wanted to share with you my joy today.
That's wonderful for you, mate. And, its great that your family is prepared to recognise your right to a life of your own. Even more so that your mother could reflect on her life as a witness, as you expressed it,
" It is shocking but also moving to hear a more than 80-year-old mother reflecting on his long life as a JW fighting and taking stand:
and say,
"I feel disappointed for all the hard work I've done and I am upset to hear how badly they spoke about you for only living as you wanted"
I look at my GAYXJW friend and his partner and often reflect that their lives, outside of their bedroom (grin) would be regarded as exemplary in a congregation of Jws.
Its great to see that the anti-gay stand of most churches is now failing. One example, in Australia polling consistently shows support of the legalisation of gay relationships in marriage, running to over 70%
The failure of the Yahweh/Jesus combo god to stop the persecution of gay people shames all humanity.
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LET'S SAY, TODAY YOU HAD TO JOIN A CULT . . .
by Terry inand by "cult" i mean any organized religious group outside of the mainstream--.
which one would you select?.
let's say you were compelled to remain an active member for one year--which one do you choose and why?.
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fulltimestudent
There are some very strange groups in history.
How about the Indian thuggees? Their cult is the source of our English word thug:
Thuggee or tuggee (Hindi: ठग्गी ṭhagī ; Urdu: ٹھگ ; Sanskrit: sthaga ; Sindhi: ٺوڳي، ٺڳ ; Kannada: "thakka" ) refers to the acts of Thugs, an organized gang of professional assassins.
The Thugs travelled in groups across India for six hundred years. Although the Thugs traced their origin to seven Muslim tribes, Hindus appear to have been associated with them at an early period.
They were first mentioned in Ẓiyāʾ-ud-Dīn Baranī's History of Fīrūz Shāh dated around 1356. ... The Thugs would join travelers and gain their confidence. This would allow them to then surprise and strangle their victims by pulling a handkerchief or noose tight around their necks. They would then rob their victims of valuables and bury their bodies. This led them to also be called Phansigar (English: using a noose), a term more commonly used in southern India.
Thuggees worshipping (grin)
The earliest currently known recorded mention of the Thugs as a special band or fraternity, rather than as ordinary thieves, is found in the following passage of Ziau-d din Barni's History of Firoz Shah (written about 1356):
In the reign of that sultan (about 1290), some Thugs were taken in Delhi, and a man belonging to that fraternity was the means of about a thousand being captured. But not one of these did the sultan have killed. He gave orders for them to be put into boats and to be conveyed into the lower country, to the neighbourhood of Lakhnauti, where they were to be set free. The Thugs would thus have to dwell about Lakhnauti and would not trouble the neighbourhood of Delhi any more.
—Sir HM Elliot, History of India, iii. 141.Membership was sometimes passed from father to son, in what would now be termed a criminal underclass. The leaders of long-established Thug groups tended to come from these hereditary lines, as the gang developed into a criminal 'tribe'. Other men would get to know a Thug band and would hope to be recruited, in the way that one might aspire to join an elite regiment or university: they were the best operators in "the business" and, like a regiment or college fraternity, once in the group, there was a camaraderie of numbers and shared experience. The robbery became less a question of solving problems of poverty and more a profession, like soldiering.
Sometimes the young children of the travellers would be spared and groomed to become Thugs themselves.
reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
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LET'S SAY, TODAY YOU HAD TO JOIN A CULT . . .
by Terry inand by "cult" i mean any organized religious group outside of the mainstream--.
which one would you select?.
let's say you were compelled to remain an active member for one year--which one do you choose and why?.
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fulltimestudent
I now live in a god-free zone, so I think I'll join Cofty in refusing.
But, if you absolutely insist I think cantleave has the answer - look for a cult that commands promiscous sex.
Maybe like this one,practised in the wilds of Arizona (and note that the leaders were educated at Princeton and Stanford - so do the the Jws have a point in their opposition to higher education? (more maniacal laughter):
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A new investigation into a mysterious Arizona yoga retreat - likened to cult - and the death of one of its members alleges the Princeton-educated leader condoned bizarre tantric sex rituals at his camp.
It was the death of Stanford-graduate Ian Thorson from exposure and dehydration in the desert after he had been expelled from his love rivals Michael Roach's Diamond Mountain in June 2012, that shone a light on the shady religious practices of the Buddhist community.
Aired on Sunday, NBC's Dateline re-examined the circumstances surrounding Thorson's passing and spoke with a former member, almost two years after he was found in a cave alongside his wife, Christie McNally who had separated from Roach three years previously.
Thorson and McNally were hardcore devotees of Tibetan Buddhism, studying literally at the feet of Michael Roach at his Arizona desert compound.
In happier days-Criticism: Buddhist scholar Robert Thurman, left, and the Dalai Lama, centre, both turned their backs on Roach after it came to light that he had married
By all accounts, Roach demanded total obedience from his followers, that some have compared to a the megalomania of a cult.
At the Buddhist Diamond Mountain retreat, nearly 40 aherents pledge to meditate for three years, three months and three days. Their only communication is by paper and pen.
It is run by divisive Princeton-educated monk and McNally's former husband, Michael Roach, whose teachings have been rejected as unconventional by some, including the Dalai Lama.
Roach, who had previously run a diamond business worth tens of millions of dollars, raised eyebrows for promoting Buddhist principles as a path to financial success, the New York Times reported in the aftermath of Thorson's death in 2012.
One of his former students, yoga teacher Matthew Remski described the leader as a 'charismatic Buddhist teacher' who he respected until his popularity 'turned him into a celebrity'.
Others have cited concerning initiation ceremonies. Another former volunteer, Sid Johnson, told NBC's Dateline that his involved 'kissing and genital touching'.
He also made the bizarre claim that Roach, who as a Buddhist monk should not have had sex let alone marry, made unusual exceptions for bedding McNally.
'He said that he had never had sex with a human woman,' said Johnson to Dateline, explaining that Roach told his followers that McNally was a supernatural being and not a woman.
According to Johnson the sexual rituals at Diamond Mountain became increasingly bizarre.
'It was so surreal, but then there was a part of me that was thinking that these were some kind of sacred rituals and perhaps something amazing is going to happen,' said Johnson.
Another former follower, Buddhist monk, Lama Lobsang Nyima described walking in on Ian Thorson’s creepy devotional practice to Michael Roach.
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Just sharing - Beautiful, 3500 y.o. female mummy from West China
by fulltimestudent insearching for information regarding the north side of tibet province in china, i found this image of this woman:.
"the beauty of xiaohe," female mummy, ca 1800-1500 bc.
excavated from xiaohe (little river) cemetery 5, charqilik (ruoqiang) county, xinjiang uygur autonomous region, china.
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fulltimestudent
But that still doesn't explain who the woman in my first post may have been (ethnically).
So lets look at who was there in the west.
In this map of the Yuezhi migration, (which is itself pieced together from a grab-bag of information)-
You'll notice to the east of the Caspian sea, an area marked Sogdiana. This was the home of the Sogdians, thought of as an Iranian (Persian) people. They came to be very influential in Silk Road Trade, and in China.
The Sogdians were part of the Iranian Empire, the Empire of Cyrus the Christ (in Biblical terminology- see Isaiah 45:1).
What do you think was the physical appearance of these people, (the Sogdians and other Iranian peoples)?
That empire existed from the mid sixth to the mid third BCE, and it ruled the area adjacent to modern Xinjiang. Borders in those times were fluid, and the people of border areas, especially where two ethnicities met, could often intermarry freely.
In 330 BCE, there was another invasion. A Greek alliance of peoples from what we call Greece (today), from the west coast of Asia minor, and the coast lines of the Black Sea, led by the Macedonians (whom some scholars think had steppe origins) with Alexander the Great as leader, swept the Persian empire away and brought the possibility of Mediterranean peoples into Central Asia.
Is that a help in identifying the origins of the mummy people?
We can find out. (soon)
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Just sharing - Beautiful, 3500 y.o. female mummy from West China
by fulltimestudent insearching for information regarding the north side of tibet province in china, i found this image of this woman:.
"the beauty of xiaohe," female mummy, ca 1800-1500 bc.
excavated from xiaohe (little river) cemetery 5, charqilik (ruoqiang) county, xinjiang uygur autonomous region, china.
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fulltimestudent
Emperor Wudi did send out an expedition. Why and who was he trying to contact?
The answers to those questions will make it clear that the area now called the Xinjiang Province of China was not settled (then) by the same people as Emperor WuDi ruled over.
That means that the claim,
Her very existence, and that of others that have been found in China’s Tarim Basin, in Xinjiang province suggest that the area was settle by Europeans rather than Asians initially. That flies in the face of the accepted history of China.
shows that the author of the statement knows nothing about the history of the area, or the people that lived there.
Here's a map of what we now call China at the end of the short lived Qin dynasty and beginning of the Han dynasty. That's about 210BCE.
When the first Emperor of the Qin dynasty died, the elite families under the leadership of the Han rebelled, defeated the first Emperor's son and established a new dynasty, the Han.
During both dynasties, the biggest fights were with the Xiongnu, whose territory was (as shown at the top of the map) up in the north on the steppe lands.
You can note that to the west of the Qin empire's western boundary, there were another people, the Yuezhi, who were also in a state of perpetual warfare with the Xiongnu.
Wudi (who ruled between 140BCE and 87 BCE) decided to attempt to form an alliance with the Yuezhi in a bid to finally defeat the Xiongnu. So that tells you who was living in roughly the same area as modern Xinjiang.
Wudi's emissary Zhang Qian volunteered for that expedition little knowing that it would be years before he would be able to get back to China.
In summary, he found that the Yuezhi had decided to move on further to the west, where they formed the Kushan Empire.
This map shows their later territory, which again demonstrates how complex the ethnic origins of people in Central Asia can be. Today, the political divisions include Afghanistan, (and parts of the other 'stans.') Pakistan and India.
Here's how a Wikipedia entry tells their story:
The Kushan Empire (Bactrian: κυϸανο ; Sanskrit: कुषाण राजवंश Kuṣāṇ Rājavaṃśa; BHS: Guṣāṇa-vaṃśa; Parthian: 𐭊𐭅𐭔𐭍 𐭇𐭔𐭕𐭓 Kušan-xšaθr [4] ) was an empire in South Asia originally formed in the early 1st century CE underKujula Kadphises in the territories of ancient Bactria around the Oxus River (Amu Darya), and later based nearKabul, Afghanistan. [5] The Kushans spread from the Kabul River Valley to defeat other Central Asian tribes that had previously conquered parts of the northern central Iranian Plateau once ruled by the Parthians, and reached their peak under the Buddhist emperor Kanishka (127–151), whose realm stretched from Turfan in the Tarim Basin toPataliputra on the Gangetic Plain." [3]
The Kushans were one of five branches of the Yuezhi confederation, [6] [7] a possibly Iranian [8] or Tocharian, [9] Indo-European [10] nomadic people who had migrated from the Tarim Basin and settled in ancient Bactria. [7] Some of the Kushan kings, amongst which Kanishka, had a Turushka origin. [2] [11] During the 1st and early 2nd centuries CE, the Kushans expanded across the northern parts of the Indian subcontinent at least as far as Saketa and Sarnath nearVaranasi (Benares), where inscriptions have been found dating to the era of the Kushan emperor Kanishka, which began about 127 CE [12] [13] [14] Around 152 CE, Kanishka sent his armies north of the Karakoram mountains. They captured territories as far as Kashgar, Khotan and Yarkant, in the Tarim Basin of modern-day Xinjiang, China. A direct road from Gandhara to China was opened which remained under Kushan control for more than 100 years. The security offered by the Kushans encouraged travel across the Khunjerab Pass and facilitated the spread of Mahayana Buddhism to China.
The Kushan dynasty had diplomatic contacts with the Roman Empire, Sassanid Persia, Aksumite Empire and Han China. While much philosophy, art, and science was created within its borders, the only textual record we have of the empire's history today comes from inscriptions and accounts in other languages, particularly Chinese. [15] The Kushan control fragmented into semi-independent kingdoms in the 3rd century CE, which fell to the Sassanians who targeted from the west. In the fourth century, the Guptas, an Indian dynasty also pressed from the east. The last of the Kushan and Sassanian kingdoms were eventually overwhelmed by the Hepthalites, another Indo-European people from the north. [3]
(I've left the links alive (if they stay that way) so that anyone who wants to can follow through on the story).
Wiki reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire
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Just sharing - Beautiful, 3500 y.o. female mummy from West China
by fulltimestudent insearching for information regarding the north side of tibet province in china, i found this image of this woman:.
"the beauty of xiaohe," female mummy, ca 1800-1500 bc.
excavated from xiaohe (little river) cemetery 5, charqilik (ruoqiang) county, xinjiang uygur autonomous region, china.
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fulltimestudent
The journalistic misadventure (that raised my ire) posted by Dis-Member continued:
Her very existence, and that of others that have been found in China’s Tarim Basin, in Xinjiang province suggest that the area was settle by Europeans rather than Asians initially. That flies in the face of the accepted history of China.
According to the Chinese government, the Chinese first made contact with the west around 200BC when the then emperor Wu Di tried to establish an alliance with the West against the Huns who were then based in Mongolia. The mummy suggest that Westerners were in China long before then.
The writer demonstrates his ignorance at this point.
He seems to believe that the government of China claims, that what is now called Xinjiang, the westernmost province of China, was settled by Chinese - but then goes on to cite Han Emperor Wu Di trying to establish an alliance with the "west" (does he mean the modern west? or, does he mean Europe-if so, which part?) against the Huns (Xiongnu). See what I mean by saying that Dis-Member's pasted article is "anachronistic," jumping between the past and present.
That writer is certainly correct that Emperor Wudi did send out an expedition. Why and who was he trying to contact?
Here's a famous painting of Wudi sending out his envoy.
And I need to get ready for another class - so the answers to the questions I've raised will have to wait.
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Just sharing - Beautiful, 3500 y.o. female mummy from West China
by fulltimestudent insearching for information regarding the north side of tibet province in china, i found this image of this woman:.
"the beauty of xiaohe," female mummy, ca 1800-1500 bc.
excavated from xiaohe (little river) cemetery 5, charqilik (ruoqiang) county, xinjiang uygur autonomous region, china.
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fulltimestudent
So how about the past?
Did at some point in the unknowable past, representatives of the first humans, creep past this area. We just don't know. Perhaps they did in the inexorable march of humans over the face of the earth. But its possible that early humans kept close to sea shores, and perhaps some who went around the coastline and finished up in what is now called N.E. Russia (some of whom at least, crossed into N.W. America and formed the first populations of the Americas) started to migrate to the west across the great steppes of Russia. These may be the people who history as come to know (as previously posted) as the Steppe people, whom the Romans called the Huns, and the Chinese called the Xiongnu.
In my quite humble opinion, they are likely the most influential people in the world. Arguably, from them came the proto states that later became Japan, Korea, the Qin (the first Chinese empire - but not the first Chinese state) the Mongols, the Northern dynasties of China, and even influencing Tibet. And, as previously posted eastern Europe AND western Europe, and Russia.
If this process interests you, you can get some ideas of the process from Christopher Beckwith's, Empires of the Silk Road, Princeton University Press.
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Just sharing - Beautiful, 3500 y.o. female mummy from West China
by fulltimestudent insearching for information regarding the north side of tibet province in china, i found this image of this woman:.
"the beauty of xiaohe," female mummy, ca 1800-1500 bc.
excavated from xiaohe (little river) cemetery 5, charqilik (ruoqiang) county, xinjiang uygur autonomous region, china.
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fulltimestudent
As an indication of how complex the area is ethnically, even now in the contemporary world, here's a map that tries to show the ethnic compoisition of the area to the west of modern China.
Source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Central_Asia_Ethnic.jpg
Attempting to tag these people to their past is a lifetime' study.
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Just sharing - Beautiful, 3500 y.o. female mummy from West China
by fulltimestudent insearching for information regarding the north side of tibet province in china, i found this image of this woman:.
"the beauty of xiaohe," female mummy, ca 1800-1500 bc.
excavated from xiaohe (little river) cemetery 5, charqilik (ruoqiang) county, xinjiang uygur autonomous region, china.
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fulltimestudent
Dis-Member:
There is nothing wrong with pasting text when it's not your own. People do it all the time. It's called 'quoting'.
So..
That was not the focus of my comment. Read again my statement:
Its rather regrettable that you chose to cut and paste, without any analysis, this sloppy example of western journalism at its most biased.
We may have been all like that as JWs - but there is no longer a need to mindlessly regurgitate without thought or analysis.
In your first cut and paste, the author, to quote myself:
... chooses to jump between past and present and to use terminology that is quite anachronistic.
I will give you some examples of his very poor writing:
The Chinese government has put an official travel ban on a mummy as well as some other artifacts that were scheduled to be shown as part of the ‘Secrets of the Silk Road’ exhibition in museums in the United States.
This writer fails to mention that the mummies (they are not really 'mummies' of course) had already been on display in California for about one year. I have not sought to read the agreement under which the mummies and other items were loaned out. But if all the sh*t writing as to "fears" of the Chinese Government were true, do you really think they would've loaned the mummies in the first place?
The writer is correct in stating:
This isn’t just a problem with having to alter the government-approved version of contact between East and West. It has to do with a separatist movement by the current inhabitants of the oil rich China’s Tarim Basin, in Xinjiang province. The Uighurs who have had violent clashes with what they view as intrusion from the Han Chinese in recent years.
It is thought that perhaps The Beauty of Xiaohe mummy will give the muslim Uighurs fuel for their fight with the ruling Han Chinese. And so, for now, the mummy has been pulled from exhibitions in the United States by the Chinese.
And, very likely the Chinese Government may have decided to force the return of the mummies when, instead of being the focus of academic inquiry into the origin of the people of Central Asia, they became the centre of political agitiation by separatists. A movement which the US Government seems to have encouraged. ***
Why should the Chinese government have continued to display the mummies?
*** As they have done recently in Libya and Syria. And, further back with the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan,all of which have blown up in the faces of US officials and in the end resulted in the death of tens of thousands of innocent people, as the USA sought political advantage via mischief-making.
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Moving on to other statements by the original author:
That’s the problem. Her very existence, and that of others that have been found in China’s Tarim Basin, in Xinjiang province suggest that the area was settle by Europeans rather than Asians initially. That flies in the face of the accepted history of China.
The writer reveals his deep ignorance of the topic, in his selection of anachronistic terminology. Many scholars doubt the usefullness of the terms "European" and "Asian." They do have some meaning geographically, but who do you associate with the term "European?" Do you mean blonde, blue-eyed Scandinavians, or do you mean dark eyed, black haired mediterrraneans?
And what the hell does this person mean when he/she writes?
That flies in the face of the accepted history of China.
And, in any case, what the hell is a "Chinese?" Even today, that is difficult question. The "sh*t" writers will say they are the "han" - but the people referred to as "han" have a complex origin, with perhaps six different ethnic types merging into the present Chinese population. That writer sees "Chinese" as an ethnic term, but some scholars see China as a "civilisational" state, which grew by various ethnic peoples adopting Chinese civilisation and gradually merging into one state and one people.
Do you know that there is an ethnic link between modern Chinese people and Europeans? I digress to provide an example of the difficulties in discussing ethnic origins
To the north of (modern) China, there once existed a people called the Xiongnu. Under some leaders they were strong enough to challenge the proto states that became China. There were continual wars between the the agricultural states of the south and the horse-riding Xiongnu. In time the Xiongnu split into two groups, one of which we call in English, the southern Xiongnu. This group asked to be allowed to settle in China and were accepted. The other group stayed in the wild (free?) existence. Dont think that by 'wild' I mean barbaric, they just had a different concept of life.
But they did move, to the Romans they were known as the Huns, and you can read in Roman history of what the Huns did to the Roman Empire. Incidentally, after sacking Rome, they were eventually converted to Christianity, the Arian brand, and were likely the last in the Roman world to accept the trinity.
Later descendents took over proto-France and Germany - so we can say that politically at any rate there is a link between the ethnic mix of the Han and western Europe.
If that sounds far-fetched try reading this book:
http://ebooks.cambridge.org/ebook.jsf?bid=CBO9780511920493
The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe
By Hyun Jin Kim
Publisher: Cambridge University Press
Print Publication Year:2013
Online Publication Date:May 2013
Online ISBN:9780511920493
Hardback ISBN:9781107009066
Book DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511920493
Subjects: Ancient history , European history 450-1000
But what is the history of China origins?
I'll take up that theme in another post (I have a class to attend in 3 hours- and must get ready) and examine the author's claim:
According to the Chinese government, the Chinese first made contact with the west around 200BC when the then emperor Wu Di tried to establish an alliance with the West against the Huns who were then based in Mongolia. The mummy suggest that Westerners were in China long before then.
PS: I've had the pleasure of hearing Dr Hyun Jin Kim speak on a number of occasions. I've also heard Victor Mair speak in a seminar on Central Asian origins. Mair claims to be the first westerner to see the mummies.
