Posts by fulltimestudent

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

breakfast of champions: Being a full time student is understandable. But the Chinese?

Why the Chinese? Try this perspective. (Apologies if I seem overly simplistic) Our lives/minds are governed by our culture. Our (i.e. western people) culture (which word I use, in the sense that everything that is not of biological origin is culture) is based on a mix developed from Semitic and Graeco-Roman societies. While we see this mixture of ideas as "self-evident" truths, they need not be truths at all.

Now, at the same time that the Roman empire was controlling most of Europe, and the Mediterranean area, at the opposite end of the Euro-Asian continental mass, another great empire (the Han) was controlling most of East Asia. It was based on an almost completely different set of ideas and thinking (culture), and uniquely it had developed an idea that humans, not Gods, could control their own lives. That's very simplified, but I'm sure you can see the implications of that development. Western thinking is that the western thought system is superior. I question whether that is so.

BTW- Why did the Chinese end maintain a more or less continual political unity, and the Roman end broke into two (the east and west empires) from which we have inherited two slightly different systems.

The western empire failed under attack by a mass of Asian attackers (the 'huns' originally from the north of China) then fragmented into western Europe (and later, the USA), with a philosophical foundation of the Great Church (Catholicism) which also shattered into fragments.

The eastern Empire (Byzantium) gave rise to eastern Europe, with a very dominant Russia, based on the same cultural inheritance but with a different set of "self-evident" truths. It's philosophical foundation is Orthodox Christianity, and its different.

Ever since, the split between the east and west branches of the Christian church, the west has sought to dominate the eastern church. Does that provide a different perspective, from which to view contemporary world political struggles, with those bloody Russians refusing to think the proper "self-evident" way?

breakfast of champions: A small book fell on my lap. It was Quotations from the Chairman. Little red book. One would have no clue that it is the Chinese. It was formatted so professionally. My heart started beating more quick! Ha!

Heart beating faster? Did you think it a gift from the godz? Grin !!!

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

BOTR: Ha! Ha! Aside from asking the rare question, I do admire your posts. It is nice to take a beak from things JW and ignorant political discussions.

Thank you!

As a JW, perhaps not one of the most over the top sort, but certainly dedicated and (I praise myself) sincere. I think ordinary Jws appreciated me, I did not attend the night my DF was announced, but it was reported to me that many in the audience started to cry, that could, of course, have been for any number of reasons, but I take it as evidence that my concern for ordinary witnesses was appreciated, In posting of my own studies (the focus of which IS China) but includes a wide area of Asian topics, including early Christianity, I am trying to demonstrate that there is in the studies of human kind a wide range of interests.

I probably do not succeed to any extent, but I hope it, at least, adds some interesting content.

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

BOTR: To glowingly report about China without ever acknowledging its failings is foolishness, unworthy of a full time student.

I think your getting your own prejudices mixed up with what I post. I report on the progress China has made toward its prosperity, which has been the goal of both the GMD (KMT) and the CPC since the 1920's. Both parties essentially had a common goal, the modernisation ( a goal that can be critiqued**) of China and building the national ability to defend itself against predatory forays by Imperialists.

The claimed failings of China are a common staple in western media, Chinese successes hardly rate a mention.

I mainly attempt to post images, and let people review for themselves what it may mean.

If it looks like China is achieving something it seems to upset you. May I ask why? Would you post a positive comment about China?

Would you post a negative comment about the USA? Say about the way that Texas, Arizona, etc was acquired?

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

May I also point out that sorting out what may be the truth about any person or event in history is difficult. We read someone's historical work say, Ammianus, and then spend hours and hours attempting to work out what his pet prejudices may have been. So when I read Zinn's criticisms of Geo. Washington, do I take note or not?

So before I run out of time, let's start the first question, about Deng..

1. What did he do to help the communist movement? For example, was he a participant in the Long March? Did he subscribe to the Little Red Book?

In my first post, I'm going to state my reliance on Harrison Salisbury (The New Emperors, Mao and Deng, A Dual Biography), and then we can attempt to sort out his prejudices.

I will write without attempting to reference everything, but if you want sources, stop me and ask:

Deng went back to China from Sun Yat-Sen University in Moscow in 1927.

Was he a committed communist?

There are doubts. Professor Gao Mobo of Adelaide University, in Australia, has expressed those doubts ( The Battle for China’s Past: Mao and the Cultural Revolution , London: Pluto, 2008. ) Certainly, Mao had doubts as indicated in his calling Deng, a 'capitalist roader.' Gao thinks of him as:

"Deng Xiaoping and many like him [in the Chinese Communist Party] were not really Marxists, but basically revolutionary nationalists who wanted to see China standing on equal terms with the great global powers. They were primarily nationalists and they participated in the Communist revolution because that was the only viable route they could find to Chinese nationalism."

The choice in post Sun Yatsen's China, was essentially the GMD (KMT) now run by Jiang Jiesie (Chiang Kai Shek) or a Warlord or the Ccommunist party. I believe that many people of the era, made the same choice, even though often for different reasons. The USA's concepts had been discarded, even by Sun Yat-sen, educated in Hawaii, but turnign away from the USA as a result of the nasty, vicious war that the US army fought against Philippino Nationalists. Before his death, Sun had sought the help of the Soviet Union.

(if you cant understand why, you could do worse than consider Pankaj Mishra's, From the Ruins of Empire, The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia, (Allen Lane, 2012).

Deng's military experience started, Salisbury writes, in 1929, when the CPC sent him out of Shanghai, as the GMD police were hot on his trail. He was ordered to try to form a peasant army to attack Guangdong. That never happened. The opposition was to strong. Recalled to Shanghai for on a conference on his failure, he was sent back to re-group and eventually ordered to join up with Mao and Zhu De in Hunan, recalled again to Shanghai, then back to the Red Army in Ruijin, where he became party secretary for the area.

It was a long way from there to Beijing, 1949. In those years Mao is reputed to have told Krushchev, "See that little man over there, (pointing to Deng), never underestimate him. During the (anti-Japanese war) he formed and trained two peasant armies."

That's enough for today.

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

I can see that this may be a long discussion.

BOTR: Do you believe that only state sponsored propaganda should be allowed in China?

No! And, if you believe that. then your admission that," Based on limited knowledge of China from American broadcast news and regular reading of the New York Times," is hopelessly out of date.

And, when I finish this discussion, I'm quite willing to have another discussion on that issue.

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

BOTR: Guess who heard Howard Zinn speak several times during the sixties? Sometimes in small settings.

Well, at least we have this in common. We both admire Howard Zinn, and his critical approach to the American state.

BOTR: Write what you want but fundamental questions still must be raised about China and democracy.

I'd like to deal with that question too, but I'd prefer to do it in another thread. Why? Because in treating the topic of China and democracy, we must must make ask some fundamental questions about American democracy, critical questions, that other people are also asking.

IF you are holding American democracy up as a model for the world, then I can only say that I do not understand the joke.

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

I already posted the following brief bio on Deng:

Sichuan Province in the soutwest of China is closer to India than it is to Beijing. It borders Burma and Bangladash and shares borderzones with Xizang (Tibet).

The architect of modern China, Deng Xiaoping, came from a middle class Sichuan family, who sent him to France, sponsored by a group called the Diligent Work-Frugal Study Movement, a work and study program, which sponsored some 4000 young Chinese by 1927. Young Deng was only 15. Why did he do this. Deng says, in"To learn knowledge and truth from the West in order to save China." Deng was aware that China was suffering greatly, and that the Chinese people must have a modern education to save their country.

Deng and 210 other students disembarked in Marseille in December. 1920. Briefly studied and then got a job in an iron and steel plant in Paris, here he was exposed to worker discontent and exposed to Marxism. In 1921 he joined the Chinese Communist Youth League in Europe and in 1924 joined the Chinese Communist Party and became one of the leading members of the General Branch of the Youth League in Europe. In 1926 Deng traveled to the Soviet Union and studied at Moscow Sun Yat-sen University, where one of his classmates was Chiang Ching-kuo, the son of Chiang Kai Shek.

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

TheOldHippie: Deng did ONE thing - he destroyed everything that Mao and the Communist Party had fought to accomplish for decades, he restored capitalism and paved the way for the military-fascist regime that is now in control. A scumbag.

Let's attempt to find out the truth of your statement.

Edited to add a link to the thread in which BOTR asked the questions:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/social/current/287135/1/China-from-the-Inside3b-The-Grasslands-of-Ruoergai

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

Here are BOTR's questions:

I have no great interest in Chinese history or culture. The little bio you relate of Deng Xiao Ping is revealing. Based on limited knowledge of China from American broadcast news and regular reading of the New York Times, there are questions I would ask you.

1. What did he do to help the communist movement? For example, was he a participant in the Long March? Did he subscribe to the Little Red Book?

2. Did he take any action when the Great Famine was planned and implemented?

3. Did he support democracy in Hong Kong and China, in general?

4. If he were alive during the TianMen Square massacre, what did he do to stop it?

5. Is this a university education?

A believer in human rights and democracy. Also, a capitalist tool. I would raise the good points concerning this man but you already did it for me.

23

Questions concerning Deng Xiaoping

by fulltimestudent in

on another thread band on the run requested that i answer certain questions she put to me concerning deng xiaoping.

i requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so i start it myself.. i see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about china, and i have no issues about answering them.

like all humans deng xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.. in telling deng's story, i have no wish to distort history, i see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail.

fulltimestudent

On another thread Band on the Run requested that I answer certain questions she put to me concerning Deng Xiaoping.

I requested another thread for that, one wasn't started so I start it myself.

I see the questions are reasonable, at least for someone who (admittedly) claims to know little about China, and I have no issues about answering them. Like all humans Deng Xiaoping, is a mix of good things and not so good things.

In telling Deng's story, I have no wish to distort history, I see no reason to tell "outright lies about the past, or to omit facts that may lead to unacceptable conclusions or to gloss over anything with a quiet, slight admission that is buried by some other detail. So if anyone wants to query anything I say, please do so. (paraphrased from Howard Zinn's, A People's History of the United States.)