When did Christianity Separate from Judaism?

by fulltimestudent in

this is a subject of some importance, the view of the witnesses, likely inherited from franz's influence, seems to be that early christianity developed as a separate religion to the jews.. the view of most contemporary scholars is that the separation occurred slowly, and that influential early christians (e.g.

such as paul, peter, john and james) still saw themselves as jews.. to those of us that are no longer christians (and, most ex-witnesses here, seem to gradually move to that position) this is not an important issue.. but to an organisation that claims it has "the truth," surely it should know the truth about its origins.

yet the evidence is that the modern day religion of jehovah's witnesses, does not know the "truth" concerning the origins of early christianity.

fulltimestudent

The chapter headings are described here:

Partings—How Judaism & Christianity Became Two - Softcover

NEW FROM BAS!

Partings—How Judaism and Christianity Became Two

Edited by Hershel Shanks

Click here to purchase the hardcover version.

The Parting of the Ways between Judaism and Christianity was not one, but many. It occurred in different ways in different places and in different times. Never before has this multi-faceted process been documented so engagingly and so authoritatively by so many eminent scholars from the United States, England, Israel and elsewhere as in this new book from the Biblical Archaeology Society.

Anyone interested in this fascinating topic will find this carefully edited, insightful volume as engaging as a novel. Written by world authorities, it’s a unique resource easily understood by both the student and interested layperson. Just take a look at the chapter titles below and the famous authors who wrote them.

I. The Jewish Jesus Movement
Geza Vermes
II. From the Crucifixion to the End of the First Century
James D.G. Dunn
III. The Godfearers: From the Gospels to Aphrodisias
Bruce Chilton
IV. The Christian Flight to Pella? The Archaeological Picture
Pamela Watson
V. Parting in Palestine
Joan Taylor
VI. Christianity in Antioch: Partings in Roman Syria
Annette Yoshiko Reed and Lily Vuong
VII. Living Side by Side in Galilee
Eric M. Meyers
VIII. Jews and Christians at Rome: An Early Parting of the Ways
Margaret H. Williams
IX. Christianity’s Rise After Judaism’s Demise in Early Egypt
Robert A. Kraft and AnneMarie Luijendijk
X. Ebionites and Nazoraeans: Christians or Jews?
Matt A. Jackson-McCabe
XI. In Between: Jewish-Christians and the Curse of the Heretics
Shaye J.D. Cohen
XII. The Complexities of Rejections and Attraction, Herein of Love and Hate
Steven Fine
XIII. From Sabbath to Sunday: Why, How and When?
Lawrence T. Geraty
XIV. Social Organization and Parting in East and West
Arye Edrei and Doron Mendels
XV. Did They Ever Part?
James H. Charlesworth

416 pp., 8 pp. of color plates, 48 b&w illustrations,
13 color illustrations (all on color plates), 8 maps

More Information at:

http://store.bib-arch.org/prodinfo.asp?number=7HP1

16

When did Christianity Separate from Judaism?

by fulltimestudent in

this is a subject of some importance, the view of the witnesses, likely inherited from franz's influence, seems to be that early christianity developed as a separate religion to the jews.. the view of most contemporary scholars is that the separation occurred slowly, and that influential early christians (e.g.

such as paul, peter, john and james) still saw themselves as jews.. to those of us that are no longer christians (and, most ex-witnesses here, seem to gradually move to that position) this is not an important issue.. but to an organisation that claims it has "the truth," surely it should know the truth about its origins.

yet the evidence is that the modern day religion of jehovah's witnesses, does not know the "truth" concerning the origins of early christianity.

fulltimestudent

This is a subject of some importance, the view of the witnesses, likely inherited from Franz's influence, seems to be that early Christianity developed as a separate religion to the Jews.

The view of most contemporary scholars is that the separation occurred slowly, and that influential early Christians (e.g. such as Paul, Peter, John and James) still saw themselves as Jews.

To those of us that are no longer Christians (and, most ex-witnesses here, seem to gradually move to that position) this is not an important issue.

But to an organisation that claims it has "the truth," surely it should know the truth about its origins. Yet the evidence is that the modern day religion of Jehovah's witnesses, does not know the "truth" concerning the origins of early Christianity.

For those who seek to know more about the separation of early Christianity from Judaism, this Bible Archeological Society publication will help analyse the evidence.

Partings—How Judaism & Christianity Became Two - Softcover

53

Some Questions About Jesus

by Coded Logic in

why didn't jesus ever write anything?

why are there no letters to jesus?

no painting of jesus from that time?

fulltimestudent

Coded Logica day ago: Why didn't Jesus ever write anything? Why are there no letters to Jesus?

He may have written things, but they were not preserved. We have the documents called the Dead Sea Scrolls which demonstrate that the Jewish group that produced those documents, liked to put things in writing.

Personally I doubt that he wrote much, because the type of preacher that he was (and there were others like him) were very verbal. I don't consider that the sort of teacher that Jesus was would think it necessary to record and write things down. He was convinced (or, deluded) that God was acting through him, and that the promised Jewish Kingdom would be established soon

As far as paintings and sculptures were concerned, such things were made of elite people.

-----------------------

JeffTa day ago: Due to the ban on idolatry, the Jews didn't not make busts or paintings of anybody.

Not true Jeff, the synagogue at Dura-Europas dated to likely the second/third centuries CE, were richly ornamented with biblical characters and scenes. As:

And from Palestine itself, there are extant mosaic synagogue floors, quite possibly from the first century, that show similar scenes

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

Another item:

Egyptians Brewed Beer in Tel Aviv 5,000 Years Ago
by Megan Gannon, News Editor | March 30, 2015 11:38am ET
Tel Aviv's reputation as a party city for expats might have started 5,000 years ago.
During the Bronze Age, Egyptians were making beer in what is today downtown Tel Aviv, new archaeological evidence suggests.
When archaeologists were conducting salvage excavations ahead of construction on new office buildings along Hamasger Street, they found 17 ancient pits that were used to store produce, according to an announcement from the Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA).
These pits held Egyptian-style pottery that dated back to the Early Bronze Age I, a period that lasted from 3500 B.C. to 3000 B.C. [In Photos: Early Bronze Age Chariot Burial]
"On the basis of previously conducted excavations in the region, we knew there is an Early Bronze Age site here, but this excavation is the first evidence we have of an Egyptian occupation in the center of Tel Aviv at that time," Diego Barkan, an archaeologist who was conducting the excavation on behalf of the IAA, said in the statement.
Barkan and his colleagues found hundreds of pottery fragments, including broken pieces of large ceramic basins traditionally used to prepare beer — a staple of the Egyptian diet.
The clay that was used to create these basins had been mixed with straw or other organic materials as strengthening agents. This method wasn't used in the local pottery industry in Israel, but straw-tempered vessels have been found before at other Egyptian sites — notably, the Egyptian administrative building that was excavated at En Besor in southern Israel, Barkan explained.
"This is also the northernmost evidence we have of an Egyptian presence in the Early Bronze Age I," Barkan said. "Until now, we were only aware of an Egyptian presence in the northern Negev and southern coastal plain, whereby the northernmost point of Egyptian occupation occurred in Azor. Now we know that they also appreciated what the Tel Aviv region had to offer and that they too knew how to enjoy a glass of beer, just as Tel Avivians do today."
The archaeologists report that they also found 5,000-year-old bones from wild boar, sheep and goat at the site, as well as a bronze dagger and stone tools dating back 6,000 years, during the Chalcolithic period.

Link: http://www.livescience.com/50300-egyptians-brewed-beer-in-tel-aviv.html

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

Egyptian ring

A ring unearthed during the excavation is inlaid with a seal showing an Egyptian warrior holding a shield and sword.
Credit: Unit for the Prevention of Antiquities Robbery of the Israel Antiquities Authority

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

From Livescience this overview:

Link: http://www.livescience.com/50335-egyptian-artifacts-salvaged-from-robbed-tomb.html

Egyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by Megan Gannon, News Editor | April 01, 2015 09:47am ET

In an underground cave in Israel, archaeologists have unearthed 3,000-year-old Egyptian artifacts that had been spared by tomb robbers.

Inspectors with the Israel Antiquities Authority's (IAA) Unit for the Prevention of Antiquities Robbery say they found pickaxes and other signs of looting in a cave near Kibbutz Lahav in southern Israel.

Upon further investigation, the excavators discovered a hoard of ancient artifacts. IAA officials say they don't yet know how the cave was used or why these objects were placed there, but they found several intact ceramic pots; jewelry made of bronze, shells and faience; oil lamps; small amulets; alabaster jars; cosmetic vessels; and Egyptian scarab seals that date back to the 15th and 14th centuries B.C.

"During this period, Canaan was ruled by Egypt," Daphna Ben-Tor, curator of Egyptian archaeology at the Israel Museum, explained in a statement from the IAA.

"The names of kings appeared on some of the seals," Ben-Tor added. "Among other things, we can identify a sphinx lying opposite the name of the pharaoh Thutmose, who reigned from about 1504-1450 B.C. Another scarab seal bears the name of Amenhotep, who reigned from about 1386-1349 B.C. Still another scarab depicts Ptah, the principal god of the city of Memphis."

The announcement was timed just beforePassover, the Jewish holiday celebrating the biblical story of the Israelites leaving slavery in Egypt. There's no solid archaeological evidence to back the Exodus as a historical event, and these newfound artifacts don't offer new insights on that front. But from these findings, historians could potentially "learn about the great influence of the Egyptian administration and culture on the inhabitants of the Land of Israel during the Late Bronze and Iron Age periods," Eitan Klein, an archaeologist with the IAA, told Live Science.

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

I've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient Israel was at times part of the Egyptian empire. That means that the Exodus documents incorporated into the Old Testament, is a mythical story. The Israelites did NOT leave Egypt. Egypt was already in Israel (or, parts thereof).

Here's some indications of an Egyptian presence:

The collection of artifacts found in the cave includes faience amulets depicting Egyptian gods and scarab seals depicting Egyptian pharaohs.
Credit: Clara Amit, courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority

9

Red Moon Over China

by fulltimestudent in

perhaps the recent lunar eclipse was heaven's way of demonstrating approval of the tremendous changes in china.. here's some images from the china daily:.

the total lunar eclipse as observed in shenzhen, south china's guangdong province, april 4, 2015. the moon slipped fully into earths shadow saturday, starting a total lunar eclipse for nearly 12 minutes what guangdong astronomical science association says it was the shortest such eclipse of the century.

.

fulltimestudent

_Morpheus2 hours agoSeriously? Heavens approval? You do know that moon was seen woldwide.... Did heaven approve of all nations? Rhetorical question of course, but all these pro china posts leave me wondering if you know the primary subject matter of this board

Well, I must confess, Morpheus, that I am a rather ignorant sort of fellow, so indeed I did not know that the eclipse (if that is what you implied) was seen everywhere. Indeed, what had impressed me (and why I shared the images) was the juxtaposition of the ancient moon against the evidence of the new (modern) China, particularly the 600 metre tall Guangzhou tower, only completed a few years ago.
You are not the first to complain when I post such things. I'm not sure why, as surely from a biblical prophecy aspect, the contemporary rise (re-rise?) of China leaves attempted prophecy such as the King of the North and the King of the South concept, gasping for air.
So, if once we leave the imagined shelter of Christianity, whether the witness brand or some other brand, how do we imagine the world? Can we trust ourselves to the remnants of the age of colonialism, or do we strike out for new intellectual territory?
May I offer you another way to see the ever-changing parade of world powers, that does (I'm afraid) offer a view of China (or as a more finite view, Chinese "civilisation") that makes many loyal citizens of current world hegemons rather angry). It is this:
The major event of importance in the nineteenth century was the collapse of China's political organisation. This included China's fall from being the major economic power in the world (a position it had occupied for likely a millenium - though I admit to a difficulty in defining what was "China" during much of that time).
The major event of importance in the twentieth century was the infighting connected with the re-organisation of China's polity. This process took place in a world where other major political events obscured the importance of what was occurring in China.This is a process that is likely incomplete
The major event of importance in the twenty-first century will be China's re-establishment of itself as a major economic and political world (as part of multi-polar worldl I do not claim prescience, but it is difficult to see any alternative, unless human stupidity leads the current hegemon to commence a process that rains radioactive dust upon the poor survivors of a nuclear war.
So maybe all this ought to occupy some of our attention as we consider such all important issues like, "did Jesus really start to rule the earth in 1914? (invisibly, of course).
One thing finally, if the basic foundations of western civilisation (like Judeao-Christianity) have demonstratably failed, are there any alternatives?
What do you think and why do you think it?
PS. It was a mere whim of mine to use the idea of heaven, ('tian' in Chinese) in my post. "Tian" in heaven has connotations that our world 'heaven' does not have.Sorry, if I upset you.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

In 2012 Boyarin published a book entitled, The Jewish Gospels: The story of the Jewish Christ. (New York, The New Press).

Last year (as I recall it) Doug Mason drew this book to our attention, and I'm grateful that he did so.

If readers here have not yet heard of Boyarin's book, may i quote the Amazon overview:

"In this powerful, groundbreaking work, Boyarin guides us through a rich tapestry of new discoveries and ancient scriptures to make the powerful case that our conventional understandings of Jesus and of the origins of Christianity are wrong. Boyarin’s scrupulously illustrated account argues that the coming of the Messiah was fully imagined in the ancient Jewish texts. Jesus, moreover, was embraced by many Jews as this person, and his core teachings were not at all a break from Jewish beliefs and teachings. Jesus and his followers, Boyarin shows, were simply Jewish. What came to be known as Christianity came much later, as religious and political leaders sought to impose a new religious orthodoxy that was not present at the time of Jesus’s life."

What I want to focus on in this thread however is the first chapter, which Boyarin named, "From Son of God to Son of Man, " and in particular his analysis of Daniel 7:9,10, 13, 14.

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[b] was seated,
And the books were opened.

......

“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

I'm sure that nearly everyone here (as I did) read that an uncountable number of times in the field work. But did we read it with open eyes and minds. We shall see.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

The theology of the witnesses was defined initially by the beliefs taught by Charles Russell. After his death, Joseph Rutherford obtained control of the legal organs used by Russell to disseminate his theology and later to organise his followers. Rutherford's name was attached as author to many publications disseminated during his presidency, but it is thought, by some at least, that they were ghost-written by Fred Franz. True or not true, it seems clear that by 1940, Franz was installed as the chief theologian of the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's witnesses, and that major beliefs of the witnesses were established during this period.

To what extent Franz followed scholastic discussion in the academic world is not clear, but it can be suggested that the theological concepts taught by the witnesses are now at variance with the views of most scholars with an interest in both second temple and post second-temple Judaism and early Christianity.

To be up-front, in the first part of this discussion, the views of Professor Daniel Boyarin (of the University of California at Berkeley will be used. His home page is at: http://nes.berkeley.edu/Web_Boyarin/BoyarinHomePage.html

fulltimestudent

Posts by fulltimestudent

Partings—How Judaism & Christianity Became Two - Softcover

Egyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel