Posts by fulltimestudent

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

Interesting viewpoint, in a guest OP in the modern Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

Were Jews ever really slaves in Egypt, or is Passover a myth?
Where is the real proof - archeological evidence, state records and primary sources?
By Josh Mintz / Jewish World blogger Mar. 26, 2012 | 8:11 PM | 243
Here's a question for you: what do actor Charlton Heston, DreamWorks animation studios and Former Prime Minister Menachem Begin all have in common? Well, they've all, at one time or another, perpetuated the myth that the Jews built the pyramids. And it is a myth, make no mistake. Even if we take the earliest possible date for Jewish slavery that the Bible suggests, the Jews were enslaved in Egypt a good three hundred years after the 1750 B.C. completion date of the pyramids. That is, of course, if they were ever slaves in Egypt at all.
.... yet we so rarely examine our own misconceptions about the nature of our history with the Egyptian nation.
We tend, ... to overlook the fact that one of the biggest events of the Jewish calendar is predicated upon reminding the next generation every year of how the Egyptians were our cruel slave-masters, in a bondage that likely never happened.
The reality is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt. Yes, there's the story contained within the bible itself, but that's not a remotely historically admissible source. I'm talking about real proof; archeological evidence, state records and primary sources. Of these, nothing exists.
It is hard to believe that 600,000 families (which would mean about two million people) crossed the entire Sinai without leaving one shard of pottery (the archeologist's best friend) with Hebrew writing on it. It is remarkable that Egyptian records make no mention of the sudden migration of what would have been nearly a quarter of their population, nor has any evidence been found for any of the expected effects of such an exodus; such as economic downturn or labor shortages. Furthermore, there is no evidence in Israel that shows a sudden influx of people from another culture at that time. No rapid departure from traditional pottery has been seen, no record or story of a surge in population.
In fact, there's absolutely no more evidence to suggest that the story is true ...

Reference: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/the-jewish-thinker/were-jews-ever-really-slaves-in-egypt-or-is-passover-a-myth-1.420844

And, look at what the fact that this whole story is a myth, does to the narrative about the memorial that the witnesses celebrated a few days ago (and some other churches celebrate more frequently). It's all based on an event that never happened.

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

HowTheBibleWasCreatedan hour agoOh they were indeed in Egypt...after the Babylonian Exile.... before that it was just traders and priests... no mass exodus...

That's also another interesting connection between the Jews and Egypt, HTBWC.

You're referring to Jeremiah 42> where Yahweh is depicted warning some Jews (elite???) not to flee to Egypt, and if they did he would make sure they would die there.(e.g Jer. 44:27) So there seem to have been some Jews who were pro-Babylonian and some who were pro-Egyptian.

And, its only a couple of hundred years after the Jewish elites return from Babylon (as subjects of the Iranians) that Alexander the Great conquers the whole area and the Jews become subjects of the Macedonian Empire.. ... and amazingly, not long AFTER that and the death of Alexander, that the Jews become subjects of the Macedonian Ptolemies who made Egypt the keystone of their empire.

Yahweh never had the power to keep his people free did he? And the Jews could never break their connection with Egypt.

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

SimonSays4 hours ago

Good information. ... This however does not exclude the exodus as archeology has since then found Egyptian chariot wheel frames in the ocean floor in the red sea.

Interesting point SS. Say do you know in which Museum those chariot wheels are displayed? I bet there are some long queues to see them.

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

Crazyguy14 hours agoDon't forget the armana letters,

Thnx for posting about the Armana letters, Crazyguy. I'd forgotten about them. I wouldn't worry about the spelling 'Amana' brings the topic up anyway. And, of course, all renderings into English are mere attempts to reproduce the original language sounds into English.

The letters, as you say, very eloquently establish the Egyptian dominion in Palestine, and its reasonable to ask, why the bible never mentions that?

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Half banana13 hours agoThe story of the Exodus from Egypt was not a historical reality but a metaphor of their collective desire to be freed from the influence of their Egyptian overlords.

I would agree that the Exodus story must indicate have a psychological foundation. But I'd ask a question, about the time period. Who were the inhabitants of Palestine at this point of time? Were they so well organised that they thought of themselves as a 'national group?' Or, were they a series of loosely connected tribes, without a collective image of themselves? Another aspect must be the relationship between the Egyptians and local individuals. May I illustrate, the books of Maccabees are said to express a collective desire to be "Jewish' in a period of "Hellenisation." And, yet there is clear evidence, that the elites who ruled in that brief period of independent rule, all have showed evidence of "Hellenisation." So did some individuals in the era of Egyptian domination, become "Egyptianised?" If so, how did that play out with other 'locals?.

Another thing I think about is this, when was the book of Exodus written and by whom? I think we can discard the idea that it was written by Moses, if for no other reason than the fact that its seems mythical, since there is no evidence of physical exodus from Egypt on the scale described in the Bible. So who wrote it, and when? Some think it was written during the Babylonian captivity, by a member of the exiled elite.

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jhine: I had not heard of the amarna letters but a brief google uncovered some interesting sites . It seems that in fact a good case can be made that these letters actually back up the book of Joshua in particular .
I cannot get the link to work but it is easy to find a lot of sites showing how far from contradicting the Bible the tablets do the opposite .

Jan, I also googled and found that this was one of the better web-sites:

https://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/ancient_texts/elamarna.shtml

It seems to be cared for by a U.S. educational facility that calls itself 'The West Semitic Research Project.'

I do not doubt that when it comes to the book of Joshua that there can be a kernel of reality behind the probably mythical activities of the heroic Joshua. But it's the same problem as the historical Jesus, to separate the historical Jesus from the mythical image is difficult.

Another web-site ( http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Amarna_letters ), when you start to dig a little, illustrates another difficulty. The site is accused of being a front for the Unification Church, which many would see as Korean Christian cult ...

Nonetheless, while I see no real problem with this statement (as an example).

And this is a good time to note that the argument over who the Habiru has gone to and for quite a while.

The Amarna letters also deal to a great extent with relations between Egyptian rulers and their vassal kings in the cities of Canaan. Of particular interest for biblical scholars is the fact that the letters revealed the first mention of a Near Eastern group known as the Habiru (also called "Apiru" and "Hapiru"), whose possible connection with the Hebrews has been much debated. These particular letters complain about attacks by armed groups of Habiru who attacked cities and were sometimes willing to fight on any side of the local wars in exchange for equipment, provisions, and quarters.
David storms Jerusalem: was he the last and greatest of the Habiru chiefs?

The Habiru appear to be active on a broad area including Syria, Phoenicia, and to the south as far as Jerusalem. When the el-Amarna archives were translated, some scholars eagerly equated these Habiru with the biblical Hebrews. Besides the similarity in names, the description of the Habiru attacking cities in Canaan seemed to parallel the biblical account of the conquest of that land by Hebrews under Joshua and later Israelite leaders.
A Letter from King Abdu-Heba of Jerusalem (EA 286) shows how this Canaanite king sought the aid of his Egyptian overlords against the dreaded Habiru.
To the king, my Lord, thus speaks Abdu-Heba, your servant. At the feet of the king, my Lord, seven times and seven times I prostrate myself... Oh king, my Lord, there are no garrison troops here!... May the king direct his attention to the archers, and may the king, my Lord, send troops of archers... The Hapiru sack the territories of the king. If there are archers (here) this year, all the territories of the king will remain (intact); but if there are no archers, the territories of the king, my Lord, will be lost! To the king, my Lord thus writes Abdu-Heba, your servant. He conveys eloquent words to the king, my Lord. All the territories of the king, my Lord, are lost.
Other letters speak of the Habiru joining forces with other cities to attack a king who seeks aid from his Egyptian allies.
Many scholars believe that the Hapiru were a component of the later peoples who inhabited the kingdoms of Judah and Israel. Noted Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein, for example, holds that the stories of Joshua's conquest of Canaan represent a legendary account based in part on stories passed on by Habiru raiders who attacked Canaanite towns, much as described in the above letter of the king of Jerusalem.[5] Indeed, the Book of Judges describes how the Israelites attempted but failed to take that very city after succeeding in gaining control of surrounding territories. Finkelstein also suggests that the future King David, described by the Bible as a leader of a roving band of outlaw Judahites during the time of of King Saul, was the last and greatest of the Habiru bandit leaders. Eventually he succeeded it conquering the important towns of bron and Jerusalem and later extended his rule to other territories as well.

Trusting every word would be like trusting every word in the WT publications.

But then the whole point of being a sceptic, is to always doubt the truth of anything we read.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

TheOldHippiean hour agoI think I too will go and buy myself a book, quote from it, and state that "this is the truth, because this professor says so." Stay tuned!

That's a bitchy sort of remark, TOH!

I will wait with interest to see the totally original thought that you are going to reveal to us.

Near all human ideas are based on previous information in a series of steps,that slowly accrues information particularly via the process called "peer review."

Boyarin, may be wrong, and you are perfectly at liberty to state with some kind of reference, where you think his arguments fall short.

Finally, the whole point of the peer review process is to avoid the situation that you describe in your words, "this is the truth, because this professor says so."

That's the mistake we all made as witnesses, as we accepted Freddy's viewpoint as sacred, albeit subject to alteration by the mysterious process of "new light," for which I never heard a satisfactory explanation as to how "new light' was supposed to work.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

True to the End2 hours ago

I have not read the book but I can tell you that the book of Daniel is not promoting the worship of more than one God.

Thank you TTTE, for sharing. I appreciate that what you wrote is likely your cherished opinion. And, I once held a similar opinion, and if it was well argued, it may even be worthy of consideration.

But as your argument stands, its just a mass of assertions, and to be honest, if I wrote that for any assignment in some of my Judeao-Christian classes, my Supervisor would refuse to mark it and award me a zero. Now, I would not expect you to write at that type of academic level, but at least you could dignify your opinions by making some kind of reference to a proof point.

Hellenic religious belief is accused (by many Christians, particularly early ones) of being polytheistic. When actually they were moving toward precisely the position you are defending. (i.e. a chief god and minor gods). So what's the difference between your position and the Hellenic position?

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

And here's the point that Boyarin makes, that I think we all missed when we read that text.

Boyarin writes: (pp.32,33)

"What this text projects is a second divine figure, to whom will be given eternal dominion of the entire world. ...
it (the text) brings us close to at least some of the crucial characteristics of the figure named later, the Messiah or the Christ.
What are these characteristics?
He is divine.
He is in human form
He may very well be portrayed as younger-appearing divinity than the Ancient of Days.
He will be enthroned on high.
He is given power and dominion, even sovereignty on earth.

Boyarin then goes on to argue that these are the characteristics applied to Jesus as he will appear in the Gospels,

The point I want to make is that a second divine figure is not monotheistic. This is plainly, polytheistic.

The second century Book of Daniel, is therefore plainly, a record of Jewish acceptance of polytheism by the time of the book's writing.

Further, it is highly suggestive that the early Christians who accepted the divinity of Jesus (and, eventually the trinity) cannot be regarded as 'apostate.'

1

Exciting news for CHINA!

by EdenOne in

behold the newest effort of the new world society in china:.

.

fulltimestudent

Typical witnesses, only 50+ years out of date.

1

How does the brain process the enormous amounts of information it has to deal with

by fulltimestudent in

a fascinating insight into our mental processes:.

researchers at nyu langone medical center have captured images of the underlying biological activity within brain cells and their tree-like extensions, or dendrites, in mice that show how their brains sort, store and make sense out of information during learning.. .

rendering of dendrites in brain (stock image).

fulltimestudent

A fascinating insight into our mental processes:

Researchers at NYU Langone Medical Center have captured images of the underlying biological activity within brain cells and their tree-like extensions, or dendrites, in mice that show how their brains sort, store and make sense out of information during learning.

Rendering of dendrites in brain (stock image). "We believe our study provides important insights into how the brain deals with vast amounts of information continuously as the brain learns new tasks," says senior study investigator and neuroscientist Wen-Biao Gan, PhD.

In a study to be published in the journal Nature online March 30, the NYU Langone neuroscientists tracked neuronal activity in dendritic nerve branches as the mice learned motor tasks such as how to run forward and backward on a small treadmill. They concluded that the generation of calcium ion spikes -- which appeared in screen images as tiny "lightning bolts" in these dendrites -- was tied to the strengthening or weakening of connections between neurons, hallmarks of learning new information.

"We believe our study provides important insights into how the brain deals with vast amounts of information continuously as the brain learns new tasks," says senior study investigator and neuroscientist Wen-Biao Gan, PhD.

Gan, a professor at NYU Langone and its Skirball Institute for Biomolecular Medicine, says, "we have long wondered how the brain can store new information continuously throughout life without disrupting previously acquired memories. We now know that the generation of calcium spikes in separate branches of nerve cells is critical for the brain to encode and store large quantities of information without interfering with each other."

More at: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150330112236.htm

33

Evidence for an Egyptian Presence In Early PalestineEgyptian Artifacts Salvaged from Robbed Tomb in Israel

by fulltimestudent in

i've posted evidence elsewhere indicating that ancient israel was at times part of the egyptian empire.

that means that the exodus documents incorporated into the old testament, is a mythical story.

the israelites did not leave egypt.

fulltimestudent

The Egyptian Presence in the Negev desert area is discussed in this University of California-San Diego web-site: http://levlab.ucsd.edu/publications/nahaltillah/

FROM BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGIST 1995 VOLUME 58, NUMBER 1

NEW LIGHT ON KING NARMER AND THE PROTODYNASTIC EGYPTIAN PRESENCE IN CANAAN.
BY THOMAS E. LEVY, EDWIN C.M. VAN DEN BRINK, YUVAL GOREN AND DAVID ALON
Recent excavations in Israelís northern Negev desert, carried out under the auspices of the new Nahal Tillah Regional Archaeology Project, are beginning to shed new light on the character of late Protodynastic/Early Dynastic Egyptian/Canaanite interaction, ca. 3300 - 3000 BC. Of key importance are new data concerning the role of one of the earliest historically known Egyptian kings - Narmer, in expansion of the Nile Valley civilization. One of the central research problems which the Nahal Tillah project focuses on is the nature of core - periphery relations and the impact of core civilizations on their less socially complex neighbors. Specifically, how do newly emergent ìpristineî civilizations impact and influence culture change in their less socially developed peripheries? These kinds of questions are linked to broader issues of culture evolution, especially the rise of secondary states in the ancient Near East.
In July of 1994, a wealth of new data was recovered in excavations in the Nahal Tillah area near Kibbutz Lahav which have bearing on this problem. In soundings on the Halif Terrace at the Silo site (Figure 1), large numbers of imported Protodynastic/Early Dynastic Egyptian pottery vessels, architecture, a clay seal impression, and a new incised sherd bearing the serekh symbol of King Narmer were found. Narmer, known to archaeologists from the exquisite large stone palette which contains his name symbolized as a catfish, was once thought to have been responsible for the first unification of upper and lower Egypt sometime between 3050 - 3000 BCE. This article outlines the archaeological and historical context of the new Narmer serekh and examines the importance of this early epigraphic artifact for southeastern Mediterranean archaeology.