Posts by fulltimestudent

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

There's not much more to be said, jhine.

It is difficult to know the personal conceptual view of 'God' held by any ancient writer. We may have a glimpse of how the Daniel writer saw God by closely examining the detail in the vision he imagined. Considering the likely late date of the book of Daniel - we would have to examine the books of Maccabees and the Dead Sea Scrolls, to observe other posibilities for changing concepts of God

TTTE may have approached this discussion as JWs often do, when talking to other (non-JW) believers and the argument gets difficult for them, they resort to arguing about words (it could be called, obscuration, which can have the meaning, 'to cloud over' grin!).

The discussion has been helpful in another sense, also, we can see the lack of logic in the concepts of God held by the witnesses. Stating that they are monotheists, and condemning 'polytheism,' they nonetheless believe that Jesus is 'a god.' Which leaves them in the precise position of most other polytheists by conceiving of 'Supreme Gods' and 'lesser gods,' just as (to use my previous illustration) Zeus is senior, in Hellenic thought, and Dionysus is lesser.

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For anyone seeking more information on the Canaanite God, El, there is in the JWD files an informative conversation between Mebaqqer2 and Leolaia, in a thread entitled, "Israelites so easily influenced by foreign Gods. Why?

The link is: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/220295/israelities-easily-influenced-foreign-gods-why?page=1&size=20

2

Billed (in the west) as the world's strangest marathon - A North Korean event with over 600 foreigners

by fulltimestudent in

most may not want to enter, but over 600 non-nk did and it was won by an american:.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3035662/soldiers-watching-high-fiving-fans-ban-cameras-north-korean-marathon-inside-world-s-strangest-road-race.html.

fulltimestudent

Camera were banned, but some seemed to have escaped that ban.

This seems to be a Russian video, posted on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=henAHaHTSi4

2

Billed (in the west) as the world's strangest marathon - A North Korean event with over 600 foreigners

by fulltimestudent in

most may not want to enter, but over 600 non-nk did and it was won by an american:.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3035662/soldiers-watching-high-fiving-fans-ban-cameras-north-korean-marathon-inside-world-s-strangest-road-race.html.

fulltimestudent

The winner,Charles Kobold, from Wyoming:

Charles Kobold, a cable TV installation guy from the state of Wyoming, took gold in the 10km race

Some local entrants

Local entrants to the Pyongyang marathon were joined this year by hundreds of runners from across the world

2

Billed (in the west) as the world's strangest marathon - A North Korean event with over 600 foreigners

by fulltimestudent in

most may not want to enter, but over 600 non-nk did and it was won by an american:.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3035662/soldiers-watching-high-fiving-fans-ban-cameras-north-korean-marathon-inside-world-s-strangest-road-race.html.

fulltimestudent

Most may not want to enter, but over 600 non-NK did and it was won by an American:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3035662/Soldiers-watching-high-fiving-fans-ban-cameras-North-Korean-marathon-Inside-world-s-strangest-road-race.html

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

TTTE: Now Boyarin makes a fundamental mistake as almost all of us do when he said...

"What this text projects is a second divine figure, to whom will be given eternal dominion of the entire world. .

There is no second “divine figure” in view here as there is no first “divine figure” in view. He has wrongly used the word divine from our language to try to describe something from ancient Hebrew.

All that plethora of words, to argue that Boyarin was wrong to use the word "divine," when you think he should have said, (quote: he has the characteristics of a mighty and powerful one).

No matter what word is used, viewed from this perspective, Daniel 7 is speaking of two individual "mighty ones," one senior, one seemingly less so.

This is not monotheism, there is more than one personage described as 'god-like.'

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

TTTE
We need to look at the original word meanings and usage in the Bible.
In the KJV Isaiah 9:6 reads “his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, . The Hebrew of Isaiah 9:6 actually reads differently to our English.
shall-be-called name-of-him wonderful councellor god strong
What the original Hebrew is saying is that his name will include the titles “mighty strong one” or “mighty valiant one” or “mighty chief” or “mighty hero” (where mighty is from the word “el” and the other words are possibilities of “gbur”[gibbor]).

But what happens when you read this in the Septuagint, which was absolutely trusted by the early Christians?

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
7His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to support it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth and forever. The seal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this. (Trans: Brenton)

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

TTTE:
The word “el” BECAME known as the word for god. That is what we accept it as today. HOWEVER..... Originally …. and that is where I keep going to … the original word meanings.... it just meant a mighty one or a strong one andactually had a wide variety of uses. Please read my earlier post to fulltime-student. I have several texts that show from the KJV that “el” and “elohim” actually refer to a mighty one. In an other post I have several links to places the define theses words
In the right context we today understand the word god to refer to someone or something that is of a higher power to us and we “worship” (serve) them.

TTTE, please! Most names have meanings. A friend is called 'Edmund' which means (according to baby name tables):

Mystical
Wise
Eccentric
Intuitive
Imaginative
Philosophical
Solitary

To take one of those meanings and apply it to the child is not a usual action. While meanings may shed light on the origins of the various gods that people choose to worship, to make the sort of rule your making does not make sense.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

fulltimestudent

Let me start with the most recent points and move back.

It's likely important to understand something about 'El' - a point I shall come back to. It is now realised that the background to Israel is to be found in the native peoples of Palestine, often referred to as Canaanites.

I'm using Wikipedia for convenience, I don't think that scholastically, too many people would quibble over the following entry, discussing the deity, El.

ʾĒl (written aleph-lamed, e.g. Ugaritic: 𐎛𐎍, Phoenician: 𐤋𐤀,[1] Hebrew: אל‎, Classical Syriac: ܐܠ, Arabic: إل‎ or إله, cognate toAkkadian: ilu) is a Northwest Semitic word meaning "god" or "deity" and it is used as the name of major Ancient Near East deities, including the God of the Hebrew Bible.
In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, El or Il was a god also known as the Father of humanity and all creatures, and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Ra′s Shamrā—Arabic: رأس شمرا‎, Syria).[2]
The bull was symbolic to El and his son Baʻal Hadad, and they both wore bull horns on their headdress.[3][4][5][6] He may have been a desert god at some point, as the myths say that he had two wives and built a sanctuary with them and his new children in the desert. El had fathered many gods, but most important were Hadad, Yam, and Mot

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_%28deity%29

the entry continues: Cognate forms are found throughout the Semitic languages. They include Ugaritic ʾil, pl. ʾlm; Phoenician ʾl pl. ʾlm; Hebrew ʾēl, pl. ʾēlîm; Aramaic ʾl; Akkadian ilu, pl. ilānu.
In northwest Semitic use, El was both a generic word for any god and the special name or title of a particular god who was distinguished from other gods as being "the god".[7]El is listed at the head of many pantheons.

A lot of material has been found dealing with Canaanite religious beliefs and if anyone is not familiar with this material, a good essay to background El, may be this one:

Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel

The author is Frank Moore Cross Jr. who was the Hancock Professor of Hebrew and Other Oriental Languages Emeritus at Harvard University. (now deceased).

Some prior post on this site by Leolaia will also provide some profound thoughts.

Boyarin alludes to 'El' and his associated god Ba'l, as ancient ideas in Israelite thought, and suggests that they may be the pattern for the vision that the author of Daniel claims to have had. Boyarin cites an ancient text (for which I did not keep a reference).

"Ba'l comes near in his shining storm cloud. 'El is the transcendent one"

Whatever actually was the case in the past is always subject to discussion. Some say that the deity (God, Divinity) Baal, the god of war, became the Yahweh of the Israelites. I cite this to demonstrate historically Judaism developed from its Canaanite background with some different ideas about "God/El etc. But were the original ideas entirely forgotten? We may never know.

My personal view, is that there is another possibility for second god-like figure in the Daniel 7 vision. In the fourth century BCE, Alexander the Great conquered the Persian Empire, which had included the Palestinian home of the Jews. Greek colonies were planted all over the empire. Hellenic thought diffused throughout the empire, from Greece down to Egypt and from the Mediterranean seacoast east to present day Afghanistan and the borders of India.

If you're not familiar with that process of Hellenic colonisation, may I suggest Elias Bickerman's, "The Jews in the Greek Age." or Lee I. Levines, "Judaism & Hellenism in Antiquity, Conflict or Congruence."

I'm suggesting that the model for the Daniel vision of two God's, one senior, one junior may be found in the Greek Pantheon where Zeus was the chief divinity, but there were others who were still 'gods' but subject to Zeus. For example, Apollo, the Greek God of healing and prophecy has been suggested as a pattern for the Jesus figure. Or, maybe Dionysus, the only Greek God to have a human mother.

Whether either or neither of those two possibilities is right is likely beyond proof. All we know for sure, is that likely in the second century BCE, an unknown (probable) Jew wrote a story about a divine figure, the Ancient of Days (the English word 'divine' can be used, as the figure is evidently a God who arrives in typical Jewish fashion0, coming to sit on his throne and issuing a royal/divine command that another god-like figure, called the 'son of man,' also coming in the clouds of heaven and being given royal privileges over everyone on the earth,

It is being argued that one 'God' is higher, than the other 'God,' and therefore it is not polytheism. That must be a failed argument. Why? Because in most polytheistic pantheons there is a 'senior' god, and one or more Junior 'gods.' The Graeco-Roman Pantheon has already been mentioned, as well as the Canaanite example, and for good measure we could add the Hindu example, where Vishnu is often cited as the chief God, though he may have a bit of competition.