terry started a thread on schulz and de vienne's book, separate identity, which you should read.
they've posted a partial, rough draft of their current work here:
http://truthhistory.blogspot.com/.
My thanx also, Old Goat.
Shulz and De Viennes, et al have just the right historical attitude that is needed as the bubbub of outrage obscures reality.
It will be very useful to read their final conclusions.
I really appreciate their description of these early believer's connections " affiliation was fluid and loose."
I doubt that most would have followed today's GB through thick and thin.
we once experienced, the "you'll die at armegeddon," fear instilled into us as jw's.. was that worse or better than the fear of eternal torment instilled by more conventional religions?.
john spong gives his view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkah3hemv3m.
FTS:Your words (if indicating hate) confirm their faith, so when ex-witnesses talk 'hate' they (JWs), recalling the words of Jesus, shut down their thought processes and recall only what Jesus said - been there, done that !!!!
We are survivors who were abused by the JWS.
We are survivors who were abused by the JWS.
Do I hate the people who raped me as a chlid? DAMN STRAIGHT That's called 'normal'. Having been also spiritually raped, and physically abused, by the JW cult, it is perfectly natural that I hate it.
.Do I tell JWS that? Why would I bother? I choose to vent here.
(haha, proofreading this and oops - did I split my infinitive? The horror!)
Do I hate the people who raped me as a chlid? DAMN STRAIGHT That's called 'normal'.
.Having been also spiritually raped, and physically abused, by the JW cult, it is perfectly natural that I hate it.
.Do I tell JWS that? Why would I bother? I choose to vent here.
(haha, proofreading this and oops - did I split my infinitive? The horror!)
Grin - may I invite you to split as many infinitives as you wish. Its not a concern for me.
And (seriously), I was not suggesting that there are no reasons to hate the way that some JWs' have treated their so-called 'brothers and sisters.' The witnesses share that possibility with all those who believe that they follow Jesus. Vicious, inhumane conduct is quite evident among all Christian sects, and always has been. This thread merelyseeks to point out that the problem seems inherent in the Judeao-Christian tradition. The sins of Judeao-Christianity continue to make the world stink
Personally, I cannot say I had a bad time as a witness, (not until the end anyway). I can say that my gullibility was my own fault. As a kid of 17 I lacked the intellectual forensic skills necessary to dissect propaganda (of any sort). Paradoxically, the development of some intellectual skill was at the hands of the witnesses themselves. I took seriously books like 'Qualified to be Ministers' ( and its predecessors) which helped me become more skilled at analysing a topic.
As must be clear, I see the witnesses as just another branch of Christianity, as subject to human error as all the other Christian sects.
,
we once experienced, the "you'll die at armegeddon," fear instilled into us as jw's.. was that worse or better than the fear of eternal torment instilled by more conventional religions?.
john spong gives his view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkah3hemv3m.
David_Jay : To add to the information about "colporteurs"... (the) whole "colporteur" thing was NOT an invention of the Jehovah's Witnesses. They were an invention of the British Bible Society.
...
The JWs changed the name to "pioneer" when they wanted to "prove" they were not "engaged in a commercial work." The "filling out of monthly reports" are indeed holdovers from the salesman/colporteur days
we once experienced, the "you'll die at armegeddon," fear instilled into us as jw's.. was that worse or better than the fear of eternal torment instilled by more conventional religions?.
john spong gives his view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkah3hemv3m.
Beth Sarim : Yeah, most people are in disbelief, when they find out JWs have to fill in sheets each month!!
i have a friend who has been inactive for going over 2 years.
him and his wife split, she stayed a jw and he left and lived with a worldly girl.
he timed it so that he was officially inactive by the time him and his wife split.
Quote: " The elders finally told her that he is not accepting the Christian authority arrangement so there is nothing they can do."
Now that IS an interesting development.
Hope it spreads, and people have a chance to leave this stupidity with some dignity.
As for the wife, of course there are many non-witnesses (both male and female) who have similar vindictive attitudes. How stupid also. When the games over, win or loose, just walk away from it.
we once experienced, the "you'll die at armegeddon," fear instilled into us as jw's.. was that worse or better than the fear of eternal torment instilled by more conventional religions?.
john spong gives his view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkah3hemv3m.
Interesting to see a variety of attitudes, in the responses to the question. Some responses are clearly based on a deep resentment of the JWs. The knowledgeable JWs, will, of course. when they meet that resentment, mentally counter the perceived anger, by recalling a biblical text such as Matthew 24:9, where Jesus is supposed to have said:
"Then you will be arrested, persecuted, and killed. You will be hated all over the world because you are my followers." (NLT)
or John 17:14, where Jesus is portrayed as praying to his heavenly father about his followers:
I have given them your word. And the world hates them because they do not belong to the world, just as I do not belong to the world.
Your words (if indicating hate) confirm their faith, so when ex-witnesses talk 'hate' they (JWs), recalling the words of Jesus, shut down their thought processes and recall only what Jesus said - been there, done that !!!!
I agree with the comments that in the main, conventional churches, no longer attempt to exercise too much control. Attempts to do so usually result (these days) in falling attendances. But historically, there's a different story. Perhaps the most infamous attempt to control was the religious inquisition of the Catholic church, and even if its true that the torture associated with that era was performed by the state, it was nonetheless instigated by the Church authorities. And the actual torturers, the individuals that delighted in causing other humans excruciating pain, were counted among the faithful of the church.
Even before Christianity was legalised by the Emperor Constantine, we can find instances of physical violence being used to 'control' belief. The most infamous acts of violence may have occurred during the well-known stoushes between the followers of Arius and Athanasius.
But the tendency may always have been there, think of the other famous stoush in early Christianity, the fight between Paul and the advocates of circumcision. Paul wishes that:
12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! Galations 5:12.
The issue of circumcision was emotive in the Jewish society of the first century CE. In the wars of the Maccabees, circumcision had been an issue. The story as described in Maccabees is that even young Levites in the temple had become hellenised and were attending a gymnasium where they exercised naked. They stood out among the non-Jews by their circumcised state. In hellenic culture it was offensive to show the head of the penis, (the foreskin was often tied, so that it could not contract and uncover the penile glans) so the Jewish attenders started attempting to stretch their foreskins and hide their circumcision. In the civil war that followed both sides exercised great brutality. In the end the circumcisers won control again, and circumcision remained as a mark of a Jew.
During the first centuries of early Christianity the Roman state sought to counter it by using violence. When eventually a derivative of Christianity became the state religion the tables turned and the Christian Emperors used violence against those who wished to continue in more traditional forms of religion.
So my response to the question posed, is that that the difference is one of degree, not intent. All churches, in some way want to control.
If you need an example of 'control' by traditional churches, think of their attitude to those who have different sexuality.
But many of these churches are already, in response to popular opinion, changing their attitudes to homosexuality. The JWs stay rigidly opposed, not just on that issue, but on many other issues also, including the major issue of shunning. I doubt that this web-site would be so popular except for the shunning issue.
But the witnesses should remember that if you cant bend in the wind, you may eventually (when the wind gets stronger) break.
that was an attention-grabbing tt.. however it is also true, that the dead are now telling us things.
scientific advances allow us to interrogate the human remains that we find.. here's an example, from two ancient roman cemeteries the skeletons have been examined and something of the history of those individuals is now known.
the research conducted is explained in an academic journal, plos one.
Sorry! That was an attention-grabbing TT.
However it is also true, that the dead are now telling us things. Scientific advances allow us to interrogate the human remains that we find.
Here's an example, from two ancient Roman cemeteries the skeletons have been examined and something of the history of those individuals is now known. The research conducted is explained in an academic journal, PLOS ONE.
The techniques used enable us to know much more about what was happening in ancient times (even in pre-historical times), providing background to the more well-known events. The remains in these two cemeteries tell us that people were moving around as a result of political changes. Early Judaism and Christianity rode that tide of human movement.
The link to the full report is at:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147585
All Roads Lead to Rome: Exploring Human Migration to the Eternal City through Biochemistry of Skeletons from Two Imperial-Era Cemeteries (1st-3rd c AD)
- Published: February 10, 2016 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0147585
- Abstract
- Migration within the Roman Empire occurred at multiple scales and was engaged in both voluntarily and involuntarily. Because of the lengthy tradition of classical studies, bioarchaeological analyses must be fully contextualized within the bounds of history, material culture, and epigraphy. In order to assess migration to Rome within an updated contextual framework, strontium isotope analysis was performed on 105 individuals from two cemeteries associated with Imperial Rome—Casal Bertone and Castellaccio Europarco—and oxygen and carbon isotope analyses were performed on a subset of 55 individuals. Statistical analysis and comparisons with expected local ranges found several outliers who likely immigrated to Rome from elsewhere. Demographics of the immigrants show men and children migrated, and a comparison of carbon isotopes from teeth and bone samples suggests the immigrants may have significantly changed their diet. These data represent the first physical evidence of individual migrants to Imperial Rome. This case study demonstrates the importance of employing bioarchaeology to generate a deeper understanding of a complex ancient urban center.
we once experienced, the "you'll die at armegeddon," fear instilled into us as jw's.. was that worse or better than the fear of eternal torment instilled by more conventional religions?.
john spong gives his view.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkah3hemv3m.
We once experienced, the "You'll die at armegeddon," fear instilled into us as Jw's.
Was that worse or better than the fear of eternal torment instilled by more conventional religions?
What's it all about anyway?
John Spong gives his view
??????
?
David_Jay : Fulltimstudent,
I've run into this more than several times on this site, and while it surprises me that some people are not aware of this, but just becuase I report something does not mean i condone it, approve of it, agree with it, believe it, or have any emotional investment I it. I am not the type of person to only speak up on those subjects that benefit me or side with my views or convictions. ...
Yes, I'm sure you have come across the ideas. But adding fable to myth does not make it useful.
DJ continued:Beyond finding this very interesting in the history of Jewish-Christian relations, I am merely a watcher from the sidelines. I have no personal views or opinions regarding any of the parties involved.
Thank you for clarifying your position as an independent observer.
Much of my post was directed, not at the concept of Jewish acknowledgement of Christianity, but at the glib passing over of the terrorist actions that accompanied the illegal seizure of Palestianian land preceding the declaration of the State of Israel.
That action had a destabilizing effect on West Asia and can now be seen as being a major cause of the terrorism that is spreading over the world.
We should not forget that Jewish terrorism was the modern spark that lit the fire of today's terrorism.
Neither should we forget the mythical encouragement of genocide by the Jewish God, YHWH, during the Jewish invasion of Canaan and his command to "slay utterly."
There is nothing noble or humanitarian in this religion.
??????
?
David, I'm sorry to be sceptical, I saw the names of the rabbi's whose signed the letter on the web-site you linked for us, but what percentage of all Jewish rabbis would that be?
Are there rabbis who oppose this notion?
Further, it all sounds to me a bit like the ancient arrangement, "You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." So I'm quite unable to see how it supersedes anything previously known about this topic
But moving on, you described a critical part of the process by which modern Israel was established rather glibly, when you wrote:
"After World War II when the Axis powers fell, and the Jews returned to their homeland with the birth of the new republic of Israel."
In dispossessing the inhabitants of Palestine post WW2 were the Jews acting legally or illegally. If legal, then do, I having Anglo-saxon ancestry, have the right to go back to the UK and take back the lands that French-Norman invaders of England, stole from my ancestors post 1066 CE? If the Jewish actions set a legal precedent, then the world is going to have huge disturbances as all kinds of peoples attempt to regain their ancestral heritages. The dispossession of the Palestinians by Jews is a major reason for political unrest in the middle east, and the terrorism that accompanies it?
Is that terrorism right or wrong?
If you argue that its wrong, how would you justify the terrorism used by Jews to gain control of Palestine post WW2?
Do you imagine that YHWH approved the actions of Jewish terrorists in their campaign for an independent state in Palestine?
As Palestinians attempt to regain their lost territory (to which they once had legal title), are they justified in using terrorism?
Many acts of terrorism were performed by Jewish terrorists in their 'war' attempting to expel the British (who had been mandated by the Versailles peace treaty following WW1.)
You can read some of them on this web-site: http://www.iamthewitness.com/doc/Bunche.Report.on.Zionist.Terrorism.in.the.Near.East.htm
Quote: The report is a compilation of all identified terrorist attacks on British, American and Arab individuals and entities from the assassination of the British Resident Minister in the Middle East on November 6, 1944 by members of the terrorist Jewish Stern gang to the assassination of Count Bernadotte on September 17, 1948 by members of this same gang of fanatics.
This information is compiled from reports of the US Department of State, the British Foreign Office and various American and British press services.
New York, October 1, 1948
I ask again, were those terrorist acts approved by YHWH?
Here's one (selected at random):
March 22, 1945, Cairo. The two convicted Jewish Stern gang terrorists who murdered Lord Moyne and his driver were hanged in the Cairo prison British authorities announced.
Will those two terrorists have a resurrection?
