Posts by fulltimestudent

18

So let's discuss the framework of gods plan for a paradise earth

by nowwhat? in

so after jehovah kills 8 billion people "for not knowing him'" he is going to resurrect 100 billion humans because " they didn't know him" .

the 8 million jw's will be tasked with educating these ones.

that's 1 jw for every 12k resurrected ones.

Revealed's Comment : "you've slipped.- (a) Mixture of facts and fantasy.'

Yes, you're right. It's somewhat pointless to argue too much about xtianity. Its a few facts mixed in with heaps of fantasy and speculative detail

24

The Deity of Jesus Christ

by Reciprocity in

fair warning, i am not a jehovah's witness believer, but i am curious about what it is you believe and why you believe it.

so i am interested in talking to you instead of reading about you from my own christian perspective.

after all, who understands what jehovah's witness believes better than a jehovah's witness?

fulltimestudent

More comments on the Hellenisation of Palestine.

These comments are from Geza Vermes’* “The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English” – ( the Penguin 2004 revised edition, for anyone that wants to check page references).

Commencing Page 52, of that book Vermes describes the increasing Hellenisation of Palestine. Hellenistic (i.e.Greek) cities were built along the coast-Gaza, Joppa, Dor and Acco. To the south of Lake Tiberias, Beth Shean-an old existing village was re-built as the Greek city of Scythopolis and others, with the result that Greek culture, thinking and civilization spread throughout the land.

As far back as 200 BCE there was evidence of Jewish culture succumbing to Greek culture but the strongest evidence of change came, when Antiochus IV Epiphanes set in motion a Hellenising program in Judea, that the Jewish elite eagerly accepted and embraced. Their leader was Jesus, the brother of the high priest Onias III, who changed his name to Jason. This Jason began to Hellenise Jerusalem, built a Greek style gymnasium there and persuaded young Jews to participate in athletic exercises there. Even young priests in the temple exercised there naked. Evidence? Yes! Read 2 Maccabees: (iv, 13-15, New Revised Standard Version)

Quote: “There was such an extreme of Hellenization and increase in the adoption of foreign ways because of the surpassing wickedness of Jason, who was ungodly and no true[e] high priest, 14 that the priests were no longer intent upon their service at the altar. Despising the sanctuary and neglecting the sacrifices, they hurried to take part in the unlawful proceedings in the wrestling arena after the signal for the discus-throwing, 15 disdaining the honors prized by their ancestors and putting the highest value upon Greek forms of prestige. 16 For this reason heavy disaster overtook them, and those whose ways of living they admired and wished to imitate completely became their enemies and punished them. 17 It is no light thing to show irreverence to the divine laws—a fact that later events will make clear.”

What did that writer mean when he wrote. “putting the highest value upon Greek forms of prestige?” He was referring to their acceptance of Greeks cultural standards, including the already mentioned matter of wrestling naked. And, that brought a big problem for young Jews, in ancient Greek culture, men could be naked, but it was shameful for them to expose the head of their penises. This led to these young men, circumcised when young, to try to reverse their circumcised state by lengthening the remains of their foreskins. (You can do your own research on that matter).

In169 BCE, Antiochus IV prohibited Judaism, mandating the death penalty for those who tried to practice it. For many Jews that was too much, and a rebellion commenced (the Maccabean rebellion). In 171 BCE High Priest Onias was murdered and the Zadokite family lost their centuries old hereditary right to the High Priest position. So the process of Hellenization was slowed for a while, but not stopped, and by the time of Jesus, Palestine under mainly Roman control, was again strongly influenced by foreign culture.

Which brings us to the matter of ‘God’ and ‘Gods’ – in my next post.

*Vermes was a British academic and Biblical scholar, born into a Hungarian family of Jewish descent that was forced to convert to Christianity. As a young man he became a Catholic priest and later became a scholar focusing on ancient Judaism and early Christianity.

24

The Deity of Jesus Christ

by Reciprocity in

fair warning, i am not a jehovah's witness believer, but i am curious about what it is you believe and why you believe it.

so i am interested in talking to you instead of reading about you from my own christian perspective.

after all, who understands what jehovah's witness believes better than a jehovah's witness?

fulltimestudent

To introduce another perspective, from which to view this eternal debate and hopefully some will realise how this perspective allows this argument to be better understood,

What is this 'superior' perspective? - simply the social and intellectual thought in the Palestine of that era.

Something to Palestine around the 330's BCE. Quote: "Alexander the Great conquered Palestine in the late 330s BCE, beginning a long period of Hellenization. In the late 2nd century BCE, the semi-independent Hasmonean kingdom conquered most of Palestine but the kingdom gradually became a vassal of Rome, which annexed Palestine in 63 BCE." - Wikipedia, History of Palestine

That same reference also shows that the infiltration of Greek thinking was occurring long before the 339s BCE.

Quote: "Despite the devastating wars between Greece and Persia, Greek cultural influences rose steadily.[78] Greek coins began to circulate in the late 6th and early 5th centuries.[79] Greek traders established trading posts along the coast in the 6th century from which Greek ceramics, artworks, and other luxury items were imported.[80] These items were popular and no well-to-do Palestinian household would have lacked Greek pottery.[81] Local potters imitated the Greek merchandise, though the quality of their goods were inferior to the Greeks'.[82]"

And another extract notes: "In contrast to the Persians, who stayed out of the internal affairs of the conquered peoples,[118] the Greeks introduced Greek language, culture, customs, religion and architecture to the regions that they controlled - a process called hellenization ("greekification").[119] Hellenization was pervasive in Palestine; speaking Greek and adopting Greek customs conferred many benefits for the upper classes.[120] Hellenistic pottery absorbing Philistine traditions flourished.[121] Hellenization took root first in the densely settled coastal and lowland areas, and only really began to impinge on more backward areas such as Judea in the early 2nd century.[citation needed]

The Greeks also founded many Greek cities, known as poleis, whose residents were granted tax exemptions and other privileges. The poleis had Greek style governments, Greek institutions and temples for the worship of Greek gods.[122]"

The result of that process of Hellenisation was that the Jewish thought patterns of the Palestinians. gradually took on a Hellenistic overlay.

Have you made allowance for that process of Hellenisation in your thinking about Jesus?

Finally, here's a comment by Harold W. Attridge (The Lillian Claus Professor of New Testament-Yale Divinity School). Attridge is a leading scholar of Jewish and Greek literature in relation to the New Testament and early Christianity.

Quote: "How Hellenized was the Jewish religious culture of the time? Jewish culture and civilization during the Hellenistic period was in intense dialogue with Hellenistic culture and civilization, beginning with the translation of Hebrew scriptures into Greek, a translation which survives and which we know as the Septuagint. That's certainly an example of the way in which Greek literary forms and Greek language impacted Jewish civilization and literary traditions. That impact extends far beyond scripture, and we see during the Hellenistic period Jews adopting literary forms of the Greek tradition, and writing plays, epic poems, lyric poems, all in the Greek language. Much of this activity would have centered in Alexandria, the capital of Egypt, but there was similar activity going on in Palestine, and some of these literary products that survive in some cases only in fragments, were probably written in Palestine, by Jews who were adopting these Hellenistic literary modes." - from an article for the American PBS web-site - https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/hellenisticculture.html

So, have you made allowance for that process of Hellenisation in your thinking about Jesus?

25

Was told I was not progressing!

by Overrated in

jw
friends

you're doing everything you can, meeting attendance, field circus, helping out where you can and you are told your not progressing!?!

as anyone had that happen to them in the "trooth "?.

fulltimestudent

Overrated: Quote: “You're doing everything you can, meeting attendance, field circus, helping out where you can and you are told your not progressing!?! As anyone had that happen to them in the "Trooth "?”

Searching my fading memories of my former life among ‘B.O.G’s chosen people,’ I do have some memories of discussions among elders about the progress (or, lack of) of individual males.

But what immediately jumped into my mind was not an example of your experience, but where (historically) this practice may have originated.

Some years ago I embarked on an academic study (i.e. a University degree) that focused on China in Asian history. Since I sort of manipulated the optional segments, I also took some courses in Jewish and early Christian history. One of those courses included a study of the Essenes through the lens of the Dead Sea Scrolls using Geza Vermes translation, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English. ( Penguin Classics, Revised edition 2004),

In reading Vermes’ translation of the rules applying to the new members/members of this Jewish cult, I was often reminded of life as a JW.

The Essene communities were ruled by a ‘Master’ (maskil – Vermes uses the word Guardian). The Guardian was charged with teaching the Community how to live in conformity with the “Book of the Community Rule.” He was also charged with assessing (along with other mature members of the Community) the spiritual progress of each member in his group and to rank them according to their progress.(page 29 of this edition). This was done every year, and all the males would be ranked up or down as judged (pages 30 and 31), There’s pages of this sort of stuff including a prohibition on appearing naked to another male member (???) of the Community, and a penalty for going to sleep during a meeting.

Members could be expelled (for breaking some rules, including the curiously termed, ‘fornicating with your wife’ (whatever that meant) and thereafter no member of the community was allowed to speak to them or to associate with them.

So there you are Overrated – some believers in bloody old yhwh have been assessed as to making or not making enough ‘spiritual’ progress in both the past and present.

10

Sexual abuse of children by French Catholic clergy,

by MacHislopp in

ihave received from aeuropean friend the following:.

pope francis on wednesday expressed his personal shame and that of the church at the sexual abuse of children by french catholic clergy, after the scale of the problem was laid bare in a devastating report.. i wish to express to the victims my sadness and pain for the trauma they have suffered," he said during his weekly audience at the vatican.. "and also my shame, our shame, my shame for the inability of the church for too long to put them at the centre of its concerns.. "i pray and we all pray together -- to you lord the glory, to us the shame.

this is the time for shame.".

fulltimestudent

And,over in Poland more .....

Quote: "WARSAW, Poland — The Catholic Church in Poland announced Monday that it had received 368 allegations of clerical abuse in the past two and a half years.

The claims relate to abuse reportedly committed by 292 priests and religious between 1958 and 2020.

A report released June 28 by the Institute of Statistics of the Catholic Church said that the allegations were made between July 1, 2018, and Dec. 31, 2020."

The National Catholic Register. - https://www.ncregister.com/cna/catholic-church-in-poland-reports-hundreds-of-new-abuse-allegations

----------

Probably, the tip of the iceberg, as not everyone reports abuse.

28

China About to Screw Your Life Again

by Simon in

china's economy is wobbling as one of its largest companies, evergrande, is teetering on bankruptcy.. there's a good chance it's collapse will have a knock-on effect on other markets.. so more to thank them for than just the covid virus.. no one should have any dealing with china..

fulltimestudent

Quote: "True, that China has produced a lot of junk, piling up in our landfills, ut they also have produced value for many of their suffering people."

Let's be honest about this point, China, makes goods with varying qualities, for sale in their own internal markets and for sale fo whoever wants to buy them. The people in any non-Chinese country, who make a decision to buy those goods, are the various local importers and wholesale distributors in that (your?) country. And, the people (end-user) who make the final buying decision, choose between a number of manufactured items with differing qualities and differing price points. I doubt that anyone in your country forced you to buy any product.

If you visit China and attend a trade show (for any industry), you will be able to see for yourself the wide range of qualities that are available. During one of the 14 visits I've made to China in the last 21 years, I was walking around the backstreets of Suzhou and found a street with about 20 stores selling restaurant/hotel catering equipment for all levels of the industry (I then worked in this field). There were cheap products suitable for street vendors and high quality products suitable for 5 star hotels. The iphone you may use, was likely made in China. Personally, I use a Huawei. Why? Because it cost me Aust$190 and it does all I want a phone* to do. GM manufacture cars in China for export to the USA. I'm sure they would not do that if quality standards could not be maintained.

* My phone was scammed once and locked (not sure how)-someone, with an Indian accent, asked me to send $17,000 to them in Los Angeles and they'd unlock. I went to the Sydney Huawei office and they unlocked it for me in 15 minute.

28

China About to Screw Your Life Again

by Simon in

china's economy is wobbling as one of its largest companies, evergrande, is teetering on bankruptcy.. there's a good chance it's collapse will have a knock-on effect on other markets.. so more to thank them for than just the covid virus.. no one should have any dealing with china..

fulltimestudent

I'm not sure how to compare the Spanish (with a population of less than 50,000,000) experience, which was not backed by a huge mass movement of population, with the Chinese experience (and a movement of more than 800,000,000).

I'm reasonably sure that these private, Chinese companies, acting as developers, would have made serious errors of judgement, at times. and built tower blocks in town and cities that never sold. On the other hand, they made a lot of money in the cities where the mass-migration landed

But, is a voluntary decision to invest in a development, really 'fraud'?

One point I didn't mention about the general situation in China, is that as millions were lifted out of poverty, some were not - and for the last few years the focus has been on lifting the remaining few million living in extreme poverty, out of that situation. Not by helping them to live in cities, but by improving their incomes and housing in village situations. Not much help for a company like Evergrande. The possible real problem for Evergrande is that the Owner and his management team took their eyes off the ball. And, now he pays the price for that mistake.

But is the Evergrande hassles really going to affect the world? ere's an opinion by a guy called David Goldman, Apparently a Republican voter (who says he voted for Trump 5 years ago) He was once a N.Y. financier with strong links to Israel, who, a few years ago, bought the Asia Times and based it in Hongkong. I understand he has good connections all across the business world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyRolq7sDyU

28

China About to Screw Your Life Again

by Simon in

china's economy is wobbling as one of its largest companies, evergrande, is teetering on bankruptcy.. there's a good chance it's collapse will have a knock-on effect on other markets.. so more to thank them for than just the covid virus.. no one should have any dealing with china..

fulltimestudent

The question of why, this crisis occurred has still not been answered. But, the answer is quite complicated.

First, here's a National Geographic video showing what happened to a village called Houtouwan, on Shengshan Island on the coast of Zhejiang Province. The village, only 49 Km from Shanghai, once with more that 2000 inhabitants, is now nearly deserted with only a handful of people living there. Why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr5lbLDowqM

The answer will tell you a lot as to how Evergrande and other developers became so big, All the inhabitants left that village for better jobs in a city.

This has been one of the largest movements of people in history. In 1949, at the last census held by the Nationalist government of the GMD (KMT), it was calculated that China had a population of about 450,000,000, of which only about 90,000,000 lived in cities. In 2020, the urban population had grown to nearly 920,000,000. That's an increase to the urban population of about 830,000,000. Some sort of housing had to built for all those people. Imagine that - to try and place that in some sort of context, it's like replacing all the housing stock of the USA - NOT just once, but 3 times.

If that seems a huge undertaking, consider that in the first 30 years of the PRC, urban housing was mainly focused on replacing the hovels that so many city-dwellers lived prior to 1949, The massive growth of city populations only accelerated after (circa) 1980.

In addition to that, a middle class began growing from roughly the same time, Today, the Chinese middle classes are thought to be around 400 million - larger that the entire population of the USA. As the income of these people increased they also wanted better housing.

The development of high rise apartments really only started in the early 1990's, Australia's former Prime Minister John Howard visited Shanghai in (I think this was the occasion) 1997. In his hotel (opposite the then new developments in Pudong) his staff opened the curtains of his room, to reveal the new highrises (mixed office block's and apartments) and Howard reputedly, was shocked and exclaimed, "Shit!! How long has this been going on?"

In 2001 I made my first visit to Shanghai. A local Chinese friend allowed me the use of a small apartment in a high-rise block in Pudong. And this is my criticism of Chinese housing -the apartment was clean, but rather basic, but what surprised me was the general shabbiness of the whole block. It looked as though they had done no maintenance on the common spaces (public areas) from the time it was built some 7 years prior. I know* that in apartment blocks, you've got to keep the maintenance up or it soon deteriorates. At that time it didn't seemed that anyone cared about maintenance. Maybe its changed, 5 years ago (in Suzhou) buildings seemed to be better cared for.

It was in the first decade of the 21sts C that the building boom really grew in China.

The developers of these blocks are private enterprise, not government-owned companies. And, that's one of the problems. As Sydney (Australia) is finding out. private enterprise companies will often take illegal short-cuts. Here, in Sydney there are a number of high rise apartments, where the builders did not build to regulations and the blocks have developed structural problems.

The problems in China, are not structural (as far as I know) but financial. Developers (it also happens here too) ask for substantial deposits and then don't deliver on time. Management have not kept their eyes on the company's financial position, hence these problems.

Even with this huge building program, urban poor still have problems finding accommodation. This 2019 video by the HK based South China Morning Post, tells their side of the problem.

Where Beijing's 'bottom of society' live - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1QBjpUuflY

To stop Beijing getting too big, the government is building a new model city about 60 km away called Xiong'an, connected to Beijing by highspeed trains

*I Look after maintenance in the block where I live, and once worked in the fit-outs of buildings.

7

A Question For The Scholarly Re Gilgamesh

by jonahstourguide in

hi all.. read this article re the gilgamesh clay tablet.. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-21/us-returns-gilgamesh-tablet-to-iraq/100478858.

how does it impact the dating of the biblical flood?

it seems earlier.. i am going to do some research myself to make a comparison.. it's interesting as i have not previously heard of the tablet but have heard of the.

fulltimestudent

Would a group of approx. 5-7 be sufficient to restart the human race? Is there a scientific answer to that question?

7

A Question For The Scholarly Re Gilgamesh

by jonahstourguide in

hi all.. read this article re the gilgamesh clay tablet.. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-21/us-returns-gilgamesh-tablet-to-iraq/100478858.

how does it impact the dating of the biblical flood?

it seems earlier.. i am going to do some research myself to make a comparison.. it's interesting as i have not previously heard of the tablet but have heard of the.

fulltimestudent

OK. Jtg, you can have a lot of fun researching this topic.

There ae various ancient documents, tht have varied ages. But as a general view of the story, it depends on when the genesis account was written. Traditionally, that could be anywhere from the 15th C BCE and the 7th C,BCE,

Some attribute a date of circa 2100 BCE to an initial Gilgamesh document.

Maybe you'll the info in this Wikipedia entry to be helpful:

Quote: "The earliest record of a Sumerian creation myth, called The Eridu Genesis by historian Thorkild Jacobsen,[1] is found on a single fragmentary tablet excavated in Nippur by the Expedition of the University of Pennsylvania in 1893, and first recognized by Arno Poebel in 1912. It is written in the Sumerian language and dated to around 1600 BCE.[1] Other Sumerian creation myths from around this date are called the Barton Cylinder, the Debate between sheep and grain and the Debate between Winter and Summer, also found at Nippur"

- Sumerian creation myth (Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_creation_myth )

At least this entry is referenced, so you can check back on lots on points that seem controversial.