Posts by fulltimestudent

35

David Splane: The Catholic Church brought the Gospel into China!

by FusionTheism in

quotes from the new david splane "1900 years" video:.

"the catholic church took the preaching work more seriously than the reformers... who brought the gospel into china?

... it was the catholic church.".

fulltimestudent

I suspect that Splane was talking about the later missionary work of the Catholic order, the Society of Jesus (Jesuits), it was far more successful and was able to colonise (in a religious sense) Korea, which remains the most Christianised East Asian country with about 30% of the population claiming to be Christian.

Almost simultaneously with the Jesuit mission, Dominican Catholics were working in the south, from their base in the Philippines. You can still find Catholic churches in the south of China that date from that era. It was conflict between the Dominicans and Jesuits that eventually led to another ban on Christianity by the Qing Emperor Kangxi.

A Wikipedia entry notes:

Kangxi was also fond of the Jesuits' respectful and unobtrusive manner; they spoke the Chinese language well, and wore the silk robes of the elite.[15] In 1692, when Fr. Thomas Pereira requested tolerance for Christianity, Kangxi was willing to oblige, and issued the Edict of Toleration,[16] which recognized Catholicism, barred attacks on their churches, and legalized their missions and the practice of Christianity by the Chinese people.[17]
However, controversy arose over whether Chinese Christians could still take part in traditional Confucian ceremonies and ancestor worship, with the Jesuits arguing for tolerance and the Dominicans taking a hard-line against foreign "idolatry". The Dominican position won the support of Pope Clement XI, who in 1705 sent Charles-Thomas Maillard De Tournon as his representative to Kangxi, to communicate the ban on Chinese rites.[13][18] On 19 March 1715, Pope Clement XI issued the papal bull Ex illa die, which officially condemned Chinese rites.[13]
In response, Kangxi officially forbade Christian missions in China, as they were "causing trouble".[19]

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangxi_Emperor - under the sub-heading, Christianity

It can be argued that more advanced western astronomical technology(as in the above illustration) was the specific area that interested the Imperial court.

In other areas of technology, China was in advance of the west, as John Hobson demonstrates in his book, "The Eastern Origins of Western Civilisation," and the Jesuits channeled this technical information back to Europe.

An example, the French King Louis XIV, in 1685 sent six Jesuits to China, specifically to act as, what we would now call, 'commercial spies.' The French Academy of Science drew up a long list of topics for them to explore and send back as information about (including) scientific, military, agricultural and manufacturing subjects.

35

David Splane: The Catholic Church brought the Gospel into China!

by FusionTheism in

quotes from the new david splane "1900 years" video:.

"the catholic church took the preaching work more seriously than the reformers... who brought the gospel into china?

... it was the catholic church.".

fulltimestudent

From Fusion Theists post:

"The Catholic Church took the preaching work more seriously than the Reformers... Who brought the Gospel into China? ... It was the Catholic Church."

If you could read the text on this stele, it would be obvious that David Splane's understanding of 'who did what in China,' is seriously mistaken.

The above stele, which is dated to 781 CE records some details of the previous 150 years of a certain church's history (which takes us back to the early 7th C.CE). The church referred to is NOT the Catholic Church, but a West Asian church, often called the Nestorian church, but likely more accurately, "The Church of the East."

There is sufficient evidence to indicate the the Church of the East was quite active. Here's another image:

File:Museum für Indische Kunst Dahlem Berlin Mai 2006 061.jpg

which is often interpreted as a Palm Sunday celebration in a Church of the East. (Some scholars dispute that interpretation).

However, it may be that this form of Christianity did not endure, as during the Anti-Buddhist proscription, which also banned certain other religions, including the Church of the East, circa 845 CE, a monk reported to his patriarch (986 CE):

Christianity is extinct in China; the native Christians have perished in one way or another; the church has been destroyed and there is only one Christian left in the land.

However, China is a big place with many different peoples, and that statement can also be disputed.

But sadly, David Splane's understanding of the history of Christianity in China is in serious error

6

Growing up gay in North korea

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

how do you know you're "gay", if you've never heard of "gay?".

does something exist if there is no word to describe it?

consider the experience of jang yeong-jin.. .

fulltimestudent

kaik: Having many visits to Italy, this is very common for all southern European countries, and Romania. In Sicily young men walk hand in hand as nothing happens, and it predates Christianity to the time of the Roman Republic.

Thnx kaik, for sharing that item of information. So it may be that male/male intimacy (in the sense of 'touch') may be more natural than the artificial rules imposed by some Christians, in our anglosphere culture.

6

Growing up gay in North korea

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

how do you know you're "gay", if you've never heard of "gay?".

does something exist if there is no word to describe it?

consider the experience of jang yeong-jin.. .

fulltimestudent

Heaven: How does the suppression of information and knowledge benefit the world?

It doesn't! But I doubt that is an issue for the NK elite. They, are creating a 'make-believe' world, for the people they rule over. And because there is no other source of information to listen to , the people believe it, even if sometimes reality intrudes.

Think of our own experience, for whatever reasons (a desire to live in the NW, or perhaps a fervent love for God) we wilfully believed a load of rubbish (other Christians also do that) and ignored the other sources of information we had access to. We lacked the ability to assess and compare the information conflicting ideas. So don't be too hard on the NK people.

Heaven: There is absolutely no point to living a miserable life because of this.

I agree--absolutely! But also think of the anti-gay Christians that preach hate and who want to make the lives of gay humans difficult (even miserable) to punish them for not believing the same things they (the anti-gay Christians) believe.

And think of how conflicting it must be for a young person (girl or boy - and born naturally same sex attracted) raised as a jw. and taught by his loving parents (and who loves his/her parents in return) that he must hate the feelings that are naturally present in his mind/body.

13

Pudong, Shanghai - From the 1990's to now.

by fulltimestudent in

in 1989 pudong looked like this:.

and about the same time, like this:.

in the early 1990's some of the first high-rise office blocks were built, and i recall an article in a sydney newspaper poking some fun at the "stupid chinese," because these office blocks had hardly any tenants.. not so long before that, pudong, on the wrong side of the huangpu river, had been paddyfields and shantys, where the poorest people lived.

fulltimestudent

the lecture I've booked for tonite, looks at 'value' in the context of urban change. That's related to the change in (social) 'values.'

.

PUBLIC LECTURE: MIDDLE CLASS AND THE PRODUCTION OF VALUE IN CHINESE CITIES
18 June 2015
Performing Civilization.
Middle Class and the Production of Value in Chinese Cities .
Luigi Tomba (Australian Centre on China in the World)
China’s rapid urbanization is both an economic and a political project. On one side it promotes a rebalancing of the Chinese economy towards a consumer society; on the other it engineers the new affluent groups as exemplars of China’s new social and political order.
This talk investigates the practical and material consequences of the government’s discourse of a “civilized” middle class on China’s urban governance and addresses the significance of stratification and segregation for the overall project of governing Chinese cities. The discourse and practices it produces are functional to the creation of “value.” Urban renewal and the rebranding of traditional urban centers as postindustrial and global metropolises rely heavily on the promotion of “middle-class” exemplarism. In this process two different types of “value” are created. By targeting the middle class as a potential buyer, the state increases the value of its land-use rights, thus making it more attractive for local authorities to redevelop traditional, dilapidated industrial areas, to rebrand them as “middle class paradises.” Also, the educated and affluent groups inhabiting the new compounds become exemplars of a self-responsible well-behaved and “high-quality ” citizenry that embodies the values of the civilizing project on which China has embarked.

Speaker:
Dr Luigi Tomba is a political scientist and the associate director of the Australian Centre on China in the World (Australian National University), where he conducts research on urban politics and urbanization in China. His most recent book is The Government Next Door: Neighborhood Politics in Urban China, (Cornell University Press, 2014). He was until the end of 2014 the co-editor of The China Journ

13

Pudong, Shanghai - From the 1990's to now.

by fulltimestudent in

in 1989 pudong looked like this:.

and about the same time, like this:.

in the early 1990's some of the first high-rise office blocks were built, and i recall an article in a sydney newspaper poking some fun at the "stupid chinese," because these office blocks had hardly any tenants.. not so long before that, pudong, on the wrong side of the huangpu river, had been paddyfields and shantys, where the poorest people lived.

fulltimestudent

I have to get ready to go out soon, its just on 3.00 pm in Oz, and I want to got to a lecture at Sydney U at 6.00 pm and hopefully have coffee with a friend before, so I will make one short response now and respond as neccessary tomorrow.

Simon: Developed civilizations have to put pressure on developing people to make it clear what is and isn't acceptable and I think trade and publicity are valid weapons to do this.

You are free to view the problem from whatever perspective you choose and to believe in whatever actions you think will fix the problem.

But sometimes (speaking generally), with some problems, you cant just "tell" people what you consider is acceptable or not acceptable.

Japan is a reasonably wealthy nation, there is no reason why they need to kill whales and dolphins for food. But their response is, that they 'like' whale meat, and anyway (as far as Australia is concerned) why do you have to slaughter kangaroos, and not even for food (actually, it is for food, as kangaroos eat the grass that farmers want to keep to feed sheep and cattle).

So what's the next step - stop buying Japanese cars, or using electronic products (owned by the Japanese but made in China-smile).

Telling people what to do doesn't work.

I suggest that just as western values changed (think of Teddy Roosevelt acting like a big-game hunter in Africa in the early 20th C.) and became more compassionate toward animals, even though we still find people that abuse animals, so increasing prosperity will change the social values that make people appreciate other life forms. The idea, in a thread I posted, on seeing chimpanzees as 'persons' was not liked by some. But these discussions are part of the process by which social change occurs.

I suggest the problem of 'dogs' as food is a problem that will change. A few weeks ago, in Shanghai I watched each morning as pampered pooches were taken for a walk by their doting owners. One little thing walked in a set of four matching booties. I smiled at the sight, but another part of my mind objected, I'd rather the dog live a more 'natural' life, but how can a dog do that in a big city.

Anyway, for the record there were objections in China to the dog-meat festival in Yulin. The Australian Financial Review reported it this way:

Last year, an estimated 10,000 dogs were slaughtered for the celebration.
But this year, the festival has been mired in controversy as China’s army of netizens, among them animal rights activists and celebrities, armed with photographs of their cute dogs, launched a high-profile campaign to have it shut down.
This campaign has attracted its own backlash. Supporters of the festival say it is not breaking any Chinese laws and activists, particularly foreigners, should not be allowed to interfere with local customs and traditions. Tied up in the debate is China’s increasing openness to Western values and culture, which some believe is eroding its own identity.
“Eating or not eating dog meat is an old custom," said one dog-owner in a letter to theChina Daily. “We often apply modern standards to judge traditional customs and practices. Animal lovers, especially dog lovers, can stay away from dog meat, but they cannot force others to do the same. "

Link: http://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/chinese-debate-ethics-of-eating-dogs-20140620-je1su

BTW, the Chinese are not the only dog-eaters in the world, the (south) Koreans are also. What do you think should be done to force the Koreans to refrain from eating dog? A friend (whenever he returns to Korea) is fed dog-meat by his mother - to keep him healthy.

13

Pudong, Shanghai - From the 1990's to now.

by fulltimestudent in

in 1989 pudong looked like this:.

and about the same time, like this:.

in the early 1990's some of the first high-rise office blocks were built, and i recall an article in a sydney newspaper poking some fun at the "stupid chinese," because these office blocks had hardly any tenants.. not so long before that, pudong, on the wrong side of the huangpu river, had been paddyfields and shantys, where the poorest people lived.

fulltimestudent

If Howard was shocked that day (now over 10 years ago), he must be more shocked now. All over China, there are increasing signs of prosperity. This is not argument that China is now rich, yes! it is in part, but the Chinese government acknowledges that there is a long way to go.

Here's the comment that the Australian PM made last night, as reported in The Australian newspaper (owned by Rupert Murdoch, for the record.

" Promising “fine beef and good wine” for the growing Chinese middle class, Mr Abbott said the economic rise of China was “the greatest advance of prosperity ever seen in the history of mankind”.
“This is a momentous day. It’s a happy day between friends. It is the day that we seal the deal,” he said.
“It will change our countries for the better, it will change our region for better, it will change our world for the better.”
Chinese commerce Minister Gao Hucheng said the CHAFTA deal was of major significance and would benefit the industries and consumers of both countries.
“(The FTA) has the highest degree of liberalisation of all the free trade agreements that China has so far signed,” Dr Gao said through a translator.
“This signing is going to provide us with more open, convenient and regulated institutional arrangements for our trade and investment exchanges going forward.”
Trade Minister Andrew Robb said the agreement between the two countries, which will deliver a $20 billion boost to trade by 2035, had required a “super effort” of goodwill and hard work.
“It will take our relationship to another level,” he said.

Link: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/free-trade-agreement-australia-china-mark-happy-day/story-e6frg8zx-1227402185200

Of course, its more complicated than that, but it gives (as an example) Australian farmers the opportunity to scout out the Chinese market and learn to grow products that will sell in China and to do that on a level playing field. It also gives other business people the opportunity to grow their businesses in the Chinese market-place.

13

Pudong, Shanghai - From the 1990's to now.

by fulltimestudent in

in 1989 pudong looked like this:.

and about the same time, like this:.

in the early 1990's some of the first high-rise office blocks were built, and i recall an article in a sydney newspaper poking some fun at the "stupid chinese," because these office blocks had hardly any tenants.. not so long before that, pudong, on the wrong side of the huangpu river, had been paddyfields and shantys, where the poorest people lived.

fulltimestudent

So where was this heading. I wanted to use Pudong as a metaphor for change (in China). Last night, discussing a new trade treaty, the Australian Prime Minister described the changes in China (particularly since 1980) as the greatest movement to prosperity that the world has ever seen.

He apparently believes that the new treaty locks Australia into the increasing Chinese prosperity, as it will allow Australian primary products, and Australian service industries free access to the Chinese market and economy.

In Pudong, the Australian business men I mentioned earlier did not believe that the first high-rise building heralded anything. Based on their own experience, they could not believe that the miniscule (as it was then) Chinese economy would ever develop as it has. But it did happen and it seems in the PM's opinion that Australian prosperity is (at least in part) is dependent.

Another anecdote. In the early 2000s (2003 or 4, I think), John Howard, the then PM of Australia made his second visit to Cina (and first to Shanghai) and got to his hotel in Shanghai at night. The story goes that in his suite, his staff opened the window drapes to reveal the lighted buildings of Pudong.

Howard was gob-smacked, "Shit!!!" he is supposed to have exclaimed, "how long has this been going on?"

13

Pudong, Shanghai - From the 1990's to now.

by fulltimestudent in

in 1989 pudong looked like this:.

and about the same time, like this:.

in the early 1990's some of the first high-rise office blocks were built, and i recall an article in a sydney newspaper poking some fun at the "stupid chinese," because these office blocks had hardly any tenants.. not so long before that, pudong, on the wrong side of the huangpu river, had been paddyfields and shantys, where the poorest people lived.

fulltimestudent

OK- let's try an answer to this point.

Simon: Google Shulin dog meat festival. Disgusting.

Your viewpoint and mine. But friends of mine believe that killing any animal is wrong. But , likely, we (humans) are still dependent on some complete protein foods in our diet. Whether people make a festival or not (I'm thinking of duck-hunting) is often dependent on their own local traditions.

Simon: Do multi-storey buildings make up for it?

You could see that process as part of the change from a peasant society to what we call modernity.

In what we call modernity, there are choices. In the agrarian societies which were most common in the past, there was little choice. Both your ancestors and mine knew hunger (if your forbears were commoners).

Even for my parents, food was a major expense. As a kid, I trapped rabbits to help the family budget. The steel-jawed trap is an instrument of torture, and leaves the rabbit alive in agony. I killed them when I caught them with a hard hit to the back of the head with a steel bar. OK then, but likely not today. My kids called me a brute when I told them my stories of rabbit trapping. (I also made useful pocket money from skinning them and selling the skins)

The buildings I'm discussing are part of the complex lives we lead that allow choice as to occupation and food. I'm sure you see that?

13

Pudong, Shanghai - From the 1990's to now.

by fulltimestudent in

in 1989 pudong looked like this:.

and about the same time, like this:.

in the early 1990's some of the first high-rise office blocks were built, and i recall an article in a sydney newspaper poking some fun at the "stupid chinese," because these office blocks had hardly any tenants.. not so long before that, pudong, on the wrong side of the huangpu river, had been paddyfields and shantys, where the poorest people lived.

fulltimestudent

Simon: Why do they need to try and smuggle suitcases full of rs meat through customs? They are nuts. All the border shows are the same.

I cant make any intelligent response to that.

Simon: Worrse though is the shocking torture and killing of dogs. They actually believe that the more the creature suffers the better is meat tastes. Fucktards. ... Simon: That's before we get to the decimation of endangered species because some regard somewhere thinks it will make his tiny dick work again.

The killing of animals for meat is a problem, as is the methods of slaughter. Its taken a long time in some so-called civilised countries to prohibit inhumane killing methods. Currently in the world the Japanese and some Scandinavians are under pressure for killing whales. Australians are under pressure for killing kangaroos, usually by young men who kill for the sheer joy of killing something. i.e. the slaughtered animals are just thrown away.

Its difficult to put ourselves in the position of the Chinese, who are only a generation or so from a time when food was scarce. Today, food can hardly be called scarce anymore, and likely the same social processes that led to changes in the west will change Chinese practises.

However, the same process that has led to more food for humans, has also caused many animal species to become endangered. In Australia, koala bears (to illustrate) are endangered because their habitat is destroyed to permit more farmland. Many small native Australian animals have been slaughtered by cats, who are owned by people who like their company, but will not make sure that they are house cats only.

And sometimes the problem is even more complex. e.g in North China against the Russian border there is some evidence that tigers are returning to the area. What will happen when the first human child is killed by a wild tiger. I'm guessing it will be like India, where villagers, in that circumstance, will make sure that the tiger does not kill a human again.

Not perfect answers to the points you raised, but the matters you raised (and that I have responded to) are so complex that mere name-calling will not bring a solution.