Posts by fulltimestudent

55

Here's a view on homosexuality for you...

by konceptual99 in

...right from a pro-jw site in response to a post about the relative seriousness of homosexuality.

all you can do is reason from the scriptures, which you appear to have done.

homosexuality is as serious as bestiality, or adultery and fornication.

fulltimestudent

To those who wonder about the 'natural' sexual behaviour of the creatures claimed to be the invention of YHWH, may I recommend Paul Bagemihl's book, Biological Exuberance: Animal homosexuality and natural diversity.

The book is really a meta-study of the natural sexual behaviour of some 400 animal species, in the that the author has read the research of many zoologists and incorporates and refrences their notes in the book. At the end of the comments on different species, you can find the reference to field notes if you wish to study the behaviour.

Here's Amazon's remarks concerning the book:

And indeed it must have been, since most scientists have thus far studiously avoided the topic of widespread homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom--sometimes in the face of undeniable evidence. Bagemihl begins with an overview of same-sex activity in animals, carefully defining courtship patterns, affectionate behaviors, sexual techniques, mating and pair-bonding, and same-sex parenting. He firmly dispels the prevailing notion that homosexuality is uniquely human and only occurs in "unnatural" circumstances. As far as the nature-versus-nurture argument--it's obviously both, he concludes. An overview of biologists' discomfort with their own observations of animal homosexuality over 200 years would be truly hilarious if it didn't reflect a tendency of humans (and only humans) to respond with aggression and hostility to same-sex behavior in our own species. In fact, Bagemihl reports, scientists have sometimes been afraid to report their observations for fear of recrimination from a hidebound (and homophobic) academia. Scientists' use of anthropomorphizing vocabulary such as insulting, unfortunate, and inappropriate to describe same-sex matings shows a decided lack of objectivity on the part of naturalists.

Astounding as it sounds, a number of scientists have actually argued that when a female Bonobo wraps her legs around another female ... while emitting screams of enjoyment, this is actually "greeting" behavior, or "appeasement" behavior ... almost anything, it seems, besides pleasurable sexual behavior.

Throw this book into the middle of a crowd of wildlife biologists and watch them scatter. But Bagemihl doesn't let the scientific community's discomfort deny him the opportunity to show "the love that dare not bark its name" in all its feathery, furry, toothy diversity. The second half of this hefty tome is filled with an exhaustive array of species that exhibit homosexuality, complete with photos and detailed scientific illustrations of the behaviors described. Biological Exuberance is a well-researched, thoroughly scientific, and erudite look at a purposefully neglected frontier of zoology. --Therese Littleton.

https://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuberance-Homosexuality-Diversity-Stonewall/dp/031225377X

55

Here's a view on homosexuality for you...

by konceptual99 in

...right from a pro-jw site in response to a post about the relative seriousness of homosexuality.

all you can do is reason from the scriptures, which you appear to have done.

homosexuality is as serious as bestiality, or adultery and fornication.

fulltimestudent

Cofty: have heard this argument frequently but I don't understand it. I even heard Laurence Krauss use it recently in a debate in Australia. What has animal behaviour go to do with human ethics? Animals do lots of stuff we would condemn among humans.
It is also misleading from a biological point of view. Many species will engage in same-sex copulation when females are unavailable - for example when an alpha male dominates breeding in a harem - but will always mate with a female at any opportunity. The only known exception is found among domesticated sheep.
Consenting adults should be free to have sex with other consenting adults of either sex. We don't need to use doubtful arguments to justify it.

Cofty - when you ask, "What has animal behaviour go to do with human ethics?" The answer is of course, nothing!

But you (for what ever reason) and possibly others who use the information now available, miss the point behind the information.

The Christian argument, as perhaps first posited by Paul in Romans 1:26.27, is that same sex sexual activities are, "contrary to nature." As a deductive argument is not sound if a supportive premise is not valid, then Paul's argument fails if same sex sexual activity can be found "in nature," if for no other reason than the Christian claim that God made all things.

If in "nature" made by God, "unreasoning" animals (2 Peter 2:12) who cannot (apparently, according to that text) make reasoned decisions, (and thus change from a natural use, to an unnatural use) are found to "naturally" have sexual activities with the same sex (either male or female) then Paul's statement is unsound.

When you say: "It is also misleading from a biological point of view. Many species will engage in same-sex copulation when females are unavailable - for example when an alpha male dominates breeding in a harem - but will always mate with a female at any opportunity. The only known exception is found among domesticated sheep."

I think you will agree that it is difficult to study the complete sexual activities of animals in the wild. And, in 'domesticated' situations (and, zoos) it can be claimed the animals 'natural' propensities are distorted by the unnatural environment. You mention domesticated male sheep as the 'one' example of known 'exclusively' homosexual behaviour.

How do we know whether or not there are male 'wild' sheep that only have sex with the males in their species?

Among wild examples of the Ovid genus, we find Ovis canadensis, known commonly as Bighorn sheep. Without going into all the details a zoologist describes the males as living in "homosexual societies," in which same sex courtship and activity are routine.

Yes, there is also heterosexual activity! Once a year the sex segregated groups intermingle and mate in what humans call 'promiscuous behaviour,' during the rutting season. But what we don't know Cofty is whether there are individual males who do not participate. It is difficult to observe individual behaviours. But observing zoologists believe that some males do not participate in heterosexual activities at all. Interestingly male to male activity actually increases during the rutting season.

You may interpret this example of 'wilderness' sheep behaviour as you wish, but clearly these animals are not domesticated.

May I also point out that there are many human males that while likely 'naturally' attracted to other males, may also have (for one reason or another) have sex with females. Many of them have posted here as they are former JWs, who for whatever reason bought into this Christian foolishness and tried to live as heterosexuals, with varying degrees of success. Often sadly, the sexual needs of their wives suffered, but can it be said that they were "exclusively homosexual?"

I believe from my studies that there are people that are 'naturally' attracted to the 'same sex.' You can spot them throughout history. But as a caveat, we must remember that so long as a male can get an erection, he can have sex with whoever he desires or finds it neccessary to engage in penetrative sex with.

All this complicates our understanding or what we see in human and animal sexual activity. One thing though, surely stands out. Paul's argument that sex with a member of your own sex cannot be regarded as 'contrary to nature.' And that's why 'natural' animal sexuality enters the picture in arguments about human sexuality.

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There are many more examples in the wild of animals that seem to be 'exclusively homosexual,' I'll offer another post on the subject in a little while.

24

Watchtower and Brexit

by jwleaks in

jw
friends

so britain is leaving the european union (eu).. the governing body of jehovah's witnesses have over the past year moved the majority of its european activities to the control of watchtower britain and the ibsa primarily because of britain's membership with the eu.. further, the incorporated pseudo-political lobby group, european association of jehovah's christisn witnesses, based in brussels, is administered by watchtower britain and its officers.

.

expect major changes in the structure of watchtower..

fulltimestudent

wizzstick : ... If it really is the end of the special relationship, and the UK goes back to the queue as he says, then bye bye Anglo American World Power. Another failed WT prediction right there.

Well, I strongly doubt that any of poor old Freddy's predictions will come true. But I do not think that the political and cultural bonds between England and the USA will be weakened by this decision.

If you see the global structure of American power as a series of concentric circles, then right within the second circle (next to the inner circle of the USA itself) is the rest of the English speaking world (the Anglosphere).

The English decision to leave the the EU, (and providing the EU can survive) means that the Anglosphere's influence on the EU will be weaker.

81

No! No! No! This can't be true? brexit? No!

by purrpurr in

it seems britain has voted to leave the eu in a move of total madness!

the markets are already in free fall and the moronic bigots who campaigned for this are celebrating the demise of our country .. i can't see how a 49-51% split can be democratic?

there is still the postal vote to come in, maybe there's hope in that?

fulltimestudent

And ...

JW_Rogue : I'm confused wasn't the UK a power for years before they joined the EU. What makes people now think that they will suddenly fall apart? Sure it make take some time to adjust but I'm willing to bet they will recover.

I doubt that England (by itself) will fall apart, but the 50 million (+) of England by itself is ever going to be what it was in the nineteenth century, the world has changed too much.

JW_Rogue: This is big blow to the EU and proponents of globalization more than it is anything else.

I'd agree with that proposition. The fallout for the EU is likely to be greater than anything that can happen to the UK.

And, if there is a total dissolution of the EU, who will benefit from the new economic and political alliances that must form?

81

No! No! No! This can't be true? brexit? No!

by purrpurr in

it seems britain has voted to leave the eu in a move of total madness!

the markets are already in free fall and the moronic bigots who campaigned for this are celebrating the demise of our country .. i can't see how a 49-51% split can be democratic?

there is still the postal vote to come in, maybe there's hope in that?

fulltimestudent

Interesting result - if things get worse for England, as a result of this vote, I wonder what the recriminations will be like?

and I note that purrpurr said:

purrpurr : No! That means there will be another Scottish referendum with Scotland leaving the UK . This is hell

The news in Sydney this morning said that Northern Ireland also voted (in every electorate) to stay in the EU (The Scots also had a 'stay' vote in every electorate) and both areas are now talking about leaving the United Kingdom. IF that happens, are we also seeing the final demise of the British Empire?

And all this happening when the world influence of the 'anglosphere' is diminishing. It is indeed an interesting time to be alive.

11

Were leading characters in the history of Judeao-Christianity suffering from psychotic symptoms?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i don't think i've seen any reference to this academic study on this site.

the analysis in question was published in a serious academic journal, the journal of neuropsychiatry and clinical neurosciences, in 2012, with the title, the role of psychotic disorders in religious history considered.. the authors were evan d. murray, m.d., giles g cunningham, m.d.

ph.d, and bruce h.price,m.d.. it was published online october 01, 2012, reference link: http://dx.doi.org/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214.

fulltimestudent

I don't think I've seen any reference to this academic study on this site. The analysis in question was published in a serious academic journal, The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences, in 2012, with the title, The Role of Psychotic Disorders in Religious History Considered.

The authors were Evan D. Murray, M.D., Giles G Cunningham, M.D. Ph.D, and Bruce H.Price,M.D.

It was published online October 01, 2012, Reference link: http://dx.doi.org/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214

The abstract for the article states (in part):

The authors have analyzed the religious figures Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and St. Paul from a behavioral, neurologic, and neuropsychiatric perspective to determine whether new insights can be achieved about the nature of their revelations. Analysis reveals that these individuals had experiences that resemble those now defined as psychotic symptoms, suggesting that their experiences may have been manifestations of primary or mood disorder-associated psychotic disorders. The rationale for this proposal is discussed in each case with a differential diagnosis. Limitations inherent to a retrospective diagnostic examination are assessed. Social models of psychopathology and group dynamics are proposed as explanations for how followers were attracted and new belief systems emerged and were perpetuated.

If the above link does not work, my original web-link was: http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org.simsrad.net.ocs.mq.edu.au/doi/full/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214

I've read the full article via my university library, if the initial summary appeals to you, you'd probably need the services of a good library to access the full journal article. By the terms of my access, I can't reproduce the full article.

I think its worth reading as an explanation as to how our culture is so deeply mired in an intellectual bog.

13

A cheeky cigarette in Adelaide

by wozza in

jw
friends

my partner has been going to the adelaide law courts recently and as she goes thru the topham mall she has said hello to the jw cart ladies on her way ,well, today one of the ladies she observed went around the corner from the cart and lit up a ciggy...so naughty.. my partner has never been a witness but she knows i was once and asked me if they were allowed to smoke now.. jeez they get up to some naughty stuff when they are lounging around on their phones ,must be the devils tools corrupting them ha ha.

fulltimestudent

Grin!!!

The trolley dollies are really funny! I was waiting for a friend a few days ago outside the the council chambers in Ashfield, when two 'brothers' arrived with their trolley. A brief conversation, apparently concluding with one of them setting up the trolley (decorating it with publications) and the other rushing off and returning with two paper cups of coffee. They sat down on the seats provided by the council, drank their coffee and gossiped and sat dumbly looking into space as no one bothered to look at the literature. Then off for some more coffee, and back for some more gossiping.

My friend arrived then (late as usual) so I saw no more of the "grand witness being given to YHWH."

My conclusion, trolley dollying is the greatest way to promote gossiping ever invented. Bored minds turn naturally to gossip.

13

What is Critical Thinking? (Not the distorted view the society teaches)

by stuckinarut2 in

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.

this great video explains what critical thinking really is, and why it is a skill all humans need to employ in daily life.. the expression had been distorted by the society to something that is negative or wrong, yet that is far from the case.....

fulltimestudent

Here's a web-site that may be of assistance to those who want better CT skills:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/glossary-of-critical-thinking-terms/496#glossary-i

The page above is a list of definitions connected to CT. And on the left of the page, there is a menu of topics.

OZland is in desperate need of CT skills at the moment (we're having an election) and simple minded pollies are out in force, with biased advertisements designed to appeal to people without CT skills. And I note, the USA seems to have the same problem.

Saving the (imagined) Tomb of Jesus from collapse

by fulltimestudent in

jesus apparently cannot intervene to shore up his tomb.

so humans have to do something about it.

the washington post reports on the rescue attempt.. .

fulltimestudent

Jesus apparently cannot intervene to shore up his tomb. So humans have to do something about it. the Washington post reports on the rescue attempt.

Workers will soon enter the tomb of Jesus — and repair the ‘Holy Stone’ with titanium bolts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/workers-will-soon-enter-the-tomb-of-jesus--and-repair-the-holy-stone-with-titanium-bolts/2016/06/20/f945a0b8-309a-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?wpisrc=nl_draw&wpmm=1

quote: "Today, the site thrums with piety, but history knows it is soaked in blood. There have been at least four Christian chapels erected over the site. The first was by Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, who swept aside a pagan temple Hadrian built to the goddess Aphrodite — perhaps a move by Rome to deny early Christians a place of pilgrimage. The Holy Sepulchre was saved by the Muslim conqueror Omar in 638; destroyed by the Egyptian Caliph al-Hakim in 1009; rebuilt by the Crusaders who themselves slaughtered half the city; protected again by the Muslim conqueror Saladin and laid waste again by the fearsome Khwarezmian Turks, whose horsemen rode into the church and lopped off the heads of praying monks."

13

What is Critical Thinking? (Not the distorted view the society teaches)

by stuckinarut2 in

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6olpl5p0fmg.

this great video explains what critical thinking really is, and why it is a skill all humans need to employ in daily life.. the expression had been distorted by the society to something that is negative or wrong, yet that is far from the case.....

fulltimestudent

The ability to think critically is not easy to learn. For whatever reasons, humans have some difficulty in doing so, that's why religions get away with teaching what they do, and populist politicians too).

Here's part of what a local uni says on the topic:

Critical thinking and writing involves:
being able to question and evaluate information
solving problems
thinking beyond the immediate situation
looking at the big picture and the context of a topic
asking questions about different aspects of the topic – What? How? When? Who? Why? What if?
looking at theory and asking how it relates to practice
reading different viewpoints about issues and forming your own conclusions
reflecting on your work and deciding how to improve it in the future.
Words that are associated with critical thinking include: analysis, evaluation, comparison, making judgements, drawing inferences, problem solving, developing an argument. Link: https://www.uws.edu.au/hall/hall/critical_thinking

Also, it should not become a club to smash down someone else's argument. Many courses on CT will emphasise the need to take a charitable view of other's arguments. And that can be difficult to do in heated argument. I think that's particularly needed where we deal with people that may have little understanding of how to think critically. What's the point of insisting on CT rules, when the other arguer has no understanding of CT.

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I was about 17 when I got involved with the JWs.

I was only a below average student then, and it was in the TMS that I first learnt to be questioning in my research. Just the simple step of asking, how, when, where, whom and why, was a great step forward. The TMS textbooks in the early 1950s, like "Qualified to be Ministers," helped many of us in that generation of witnesses to take the first steps in learning to be critical thinkers and not just gramophone records in speaking assignments. Of course, when eventually events like 1975 came along, the critical thinking seeds planted muc'h earlier, bore fruit and we found we'd been led down a dead-end alley, not just about the JWs, but about religion in general. Humans in general are not naturally clear thinkers, so I'm glad of the of assistance they gave me in learning to think a little bit for myself, to give 60 minute (in those days) Public Talks, to work a room and so on.