Posts by jmorgan74

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

Oh come on. Show me a religion pantomiming both female and male masturbations, along with orgasmic facial expressions, in a liturgical context, on a website. If you find one, I'll gladly mock it.

rebel8, with respect, I think a misunderstanding has taken place. Originally you said "The cult should not be talking about this subject under any circumstances." That was the very first thing you said in your 8910 post on 9/9. So I responded (and even labeled as "1)" for clarity): "I don't think this one is quite reasonable, unless you're going to hold all religions to this standard." You responded that you did, and asked for examples. I gave you examples of other religions talking about the subject.

While I'm glad that you seem to be an equal opportunity mocker, that wasn't the point I was making. If anything, I ultimately agree with you that the signs look pretty bad, and they're actually pretty funny. What you don't seem to recognize though is that you're adopting a position that's unreasonable (by creating a standard that no other religion would accept, namely, to not discuss masturbation "under any circumstances"), and one that blames the Society because of linguistic features that you don't like. I'll say it again, this is a problem you have with American deaf people that invented their language to communicate sexual concepts by pantomiming the behaviors.

I feel like I'm the only one here that's suggested, "Hey, why don't deaf people just change that feature of ASL to be more like a euphemism, which is what all other languages do when it comes to these matters?" The Japanese seem to have come up with some decent looking hand gestures that seem more appropriate, at least to me.

But as been stated by others here, deaf people don't care about what the likes of what you and I think. So I guess we just have to deal with it?

I'm not interested in changing your mind. If you think the video is appropriate then good for you. Why don't you visit the nearest daycare, show it to the kids, and see how long it takes you to get arrested. Then tell the police they are being overly sensitive and their problem is with ASL, not you.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Your analogy is way off base, if it's supposed to be a comparison of anything the Society has done. But I wouldn't even have to go to a daycare. I can go out to a local Mall, or even in my secular work, and start doing those gestures and see immediately that most people will taken offense.

I agree! So deaf people should change their language, right?

Right?

I don't know why you think the wts/cronies' reasons for doing this mitigates the outcome. It has absolutely nothing to do with the effect.

What exactly is the outcome that you're referring to? I asked you this before, and you didn't answer my question.

Even if we accept that we're not going to change each other's minds, if we're going to dialogue we should both at least answer each others' direct questions...

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

I'm pointing out jmorgan74, that the community seems primarily offended at the topic, and are pretty well glossing over the mockery aspect.

Good! I'm glad. But I don't know ASL, so I don't really know what that person was signing on the Youtube video. I'll take your word for it.

You know, even if the WTS were washed squeaky clean inside and out, I still would not welcome them in my bedroom.

I'm not saying you should. As I said before, Jesus said as much as there is to be said about sexual relationships as far as I'm concerned. (I am speaking as if you were a fellow believer in Jesus. I don't know if you are or not, but that's how I would see it if you were.)

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

jmorgan74, the two YouTube commentaries from the deaf community appear to be flabbergasted at the message from the WT. What in the heck is the organization doing in people's bedrooms?

I haven't seen those comments. But the Society has crossed the line much more in the past, with regards to oral sex among married couples (as documented in Ray Franz books). But because the Bible does touch upon topics related to sex, Bible commentators will continue to talk about it. I think that most of us probably wouldn't have such a strong position against the Society on this one issue if they handled everything else in a way that truly represents Christianity. (I realize not everyone would agree on how I view Christianity. I am a theist and a believer in Jesus Christ. As far as I am concerned, Jesus said as much as there is to be said about sexual relationships.)

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

In what way are his comments balanced? He has been unable to present us with ANY evidence that the deaf community is more offended by the video being leaked onto YouTube than it being produced by the Watch Tower Society in the first place.

Hey, cedars. The comments I found to be balanced by King Solomon were more along the lines of him pointing out the religious dilemma the Society is in. They've already talked about masturbation as part of their message, and they want to reach people, including deaf people, which ultimately has lead us to the situation that we're in now.

The problem is, people really hate the Society, for reasons mostly unrelated to this one. And I understand why. But this wouldn't be the topic I would pick to illustrate their biggest flaws, unless perhaps I was using it to illustrate more their need for ultimate control over people's lives. The ASL aspect of it is more a criticism of ASL than it is of the Society (ironically, this is what people thought was the funniest thing in the first place, including me).

Take the ASL part out and the topic is a yawnfest: This just in, the Society discourages masturbation!!!

Wow, really? You don't say?

If you took the time to read what some of the JW loyalists are saying on the YouTube video, you would see that most are using precisely the same line of reasoning that KS is using - i.e. trying to switch the spotlight away from the Watchtower to the issue of whether the video's presence on YouTube offends the deaf community.

I haven't taken the time, you're right. And I wouldn't necessarily agree with or make the argument that the mere presence of those videos on Youtube are more offensive than they would be on JW.org alone. But, I personally wouldn't have uploaded them. I kinda feel bad for the translator guys, they really don't deserve being immortalized on the internet this way. When I really think about it, despite how much I laughed initially, I really feel bad for everyone involved. This really has turned pretty ugly, in more ways than one.

I'm glad that you see good things in him...

I see good things in you too, man. Like I said, I feel bad that this topic has lead in this direction. I would bet that if we were all sitting down having a beer, all of us might've said things a whole lot differently than we would've behind the anonymity of the internet.

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

cedars, I see where you both are coming from and I agree with you on how shunning etc has been misused by the Society.

I think it's unfortunate that this dialogue has become this heated. Part of the problem, as I see it, is how American Sign Language depicts things like masturbation. It is pretty funny. I dare say that most of us laughed when we first saw the Society videos. But from reading King Solomon's posts, he seems more interested in defending deaf people than he is in defending the Society (although I think his comments related to that have been quite balanced). People here seem to want to have their cake and eat it too; they want to make this about the Society, but the part they laugh about has more to do with ASL. I honestly see a problem with both groups. The Society for making such a a big deal of (what I think is) ultimately a minor issue, and the ASL community for creating the situation which basically forces anyone, like the Society, that want to dialogue about the issue with the deaf, to have to use such vulgar gestures. At least, the gestures seem that way to me and even moreso to those like rebel8, who seems to want to ban such gestures for the children's sake, I guess.

By the way, in all fairness, I think KS did give some background on himself. At least I recall him earlier stating that he was atheist. KS, you and I seem to be kindred spirits. If you ever want to, I think I could get you to reconsider your atheism. PM me if you're interested.

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

rebel8, with much chagrin, I try again:

Let me know what religions do the same and I'll start a thread criticizing them for it.

Seriously? Uh, ok: http://tinyurl.com/8u6lot3

I have a problem with "jack off" pantomimes being published on a religious website for anyone of any age to see. Doesn't matter what language it's in--that's totally irrelevant to me.

Oh, this is for the children's sake then? Just what exactly do you think is going to happen? Children are going to stumble upon an ASL video, watch it, and then be traumatized? What? If they're too young to know what masturbating is, they won't even know what the gestures mean. If they know what it means, they won't be traumatized. You're seriously reaching on this one. Furthermore, this, again is more of an argument against the American deaf people and how they communicate than it is against the Society.

That's because they [Society ASL intepreters] have no boundaries and common sense.

Agreed - to a point. But unlike you, I can step outside of myself and see the reasons why they did what they did, and they aren't (entirely) cultish and unreasonable. You don't have to condemn everything the Society does to be able to point out where they are flawed.

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

cedars, this guy isn't a Watchtower apologist, just because he happens to disagree with you on this one point. Yeah, things have gotten heated, but I don't think you can put all that on him.

Maybe we should just take a step back and calm down a little. In the end, nothing's gonna change anyway.

The Watchtower will still be anti-masturbation.

The [ASL using] deaf will still pantomime masturbating when communicating it.

Most of us will still laugh when we see that happen.

Thanks,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

rebel8

The cult should not be talking about this subject under any circumstances.

The cult should not make a video with graphic "jack off" gestures under any circumstances.

The dumbass interpreters shouldn't have agreed to make the video. It defies common sense.

It's that simple.

Well, I think your bias is showing through there just a tad.

1) I don't think this one is quite reasonable, unless you're going to hold all religions to this standard. I think the problem with the Society is that they feel too comfortable to go well beyond what even the Bible says on this topic (in which in this case, it never directly addresses it). People are going to ask, and they have to provide an answer. But I think they could've avoided a lot of criticism if they would simply say something along the lines of, "The Bible does not directly address the topic of masturbation. The Bible does encourage producing the 'fruitages of the spirit' which include self-control, so anything that would distract from us from that should be avoided." Or something.

2) This is a problem that you have with American Sign Language. It is quite graphic. But deaf people don't care, so get used to it (I guess?).

3) The Society ASL interpreters obviously didn't see a problem with the Society's message or with this aspect of ASL. I see your point though (I wouldn't have done it!).

Regards,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

Why should this be a question at all? The historical experience of Deaf people, both in the US and UK, mitigates that most deaf people will not change their language, simply because the "hearing" don't think it is "appropriate". You won't be aware, I'm sure, but the development and proliferation of sign-languages was a direct effort by young deaf people to resist cultural hegemony by hearing people. Frankly, if hearing people find certain signs "offensive" or "innappropriate", that will be seen as immaterial, to say the least.

Hey, Paulapollos.

Ah, yes. I kinda figured that way of thinking was behind some of this, I was just waiting for someone to say it.

So basically, we have a minority group insisting upon their rights to communicate in a particular way (even though it doesn't have to be that way, as can be seen from other forms of sign language), even though they know it will make other people (likely the majority of Americans) uncomfortable/offended. They simply don't care about how others might view it.

Now I don't feel so bad about laughing.

Best regards,
Jack

241

5 Reasons Why the DEAF Masturbation Video is different than anything before...

by BluePill2 in

jw
friends

as some of you have noticed the asl video warning against masturbation (another guilt trip) is creating waves.

this is not small fry.

1. it is humorous - most topics (like other policies) are serious/depressing (blood, shunning, pedos).

jmorgan74

As an aside, I think it's a shame that, even here, we refer to topics like sexuality and masturbation as difficult or vulgar or potentially offensive. A thing--a word, a gesture, a topic, a discussion, etc.--is only offensive if it offends us, and as obvious as that might sound, we really can choose, if we want, to not be offended by things.

That's true. But I would say that the reaction that most here seemed to have - mainly laughter - is probably typical of the reaction that most would have when viewing the ASL's signs depicting masturbation, unless you happen to be a very mature person. I think the question becomes, is it more reasonable to expect that ASL communicate terms involving sex without pantomiming the specific acts, or do we expect the rest of the American culture to change their reaction upon viewing sexual acts that are being pantomimed?

Thanks,
Jack