i was contacted by my ex sister-in-law yesterday.
she asked me if i wanted to spend some time with my niece, while she went to her sister's baby shower.
it turns out my niece can't go because she's about to be disfellowshipped at the ripe old age of 14. .
I agree with nathan here. In the here and now her being shunned is tough. I think its great that you were asked to spend some time with her! The reality is she was raised as a dub. You have been given an opportunity!! Jump on that!
This is her life, accept it and move forward!
pbrow
if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
Fulltime,
Are all humans born with excellent reasoning abilities? My university study topic (this semester) has told me that humans are not good (naturally) at reasoning things out. So there's another opinion that is worth considering.
No definitely not but I would argue that they cannot be forced into getting excellent reasoning abilities. They have to be taught them and regretfully the fact is, if they are raised dubs they will not be taught reasoning abilities. Thats the stone cold reality that dubs, mormons and scientologist born ins are faced with.
In the congregations of JWs, that you my have associated with, were all the people in those congregations equal in thinking ability? I doubt that they were. My personal assessment is that in most of the congregations with which I was associated, more that 60% did not fully understand the reasons for their basic beliefs. More, why are most witnesses drawn from the lower socio-economic groups? These are the precise groups that may have lower reasoning abilities?
No they certainly are not. Here is where we seem to have the disagreement though. In a free society they have the right to be content in their ignorance. They do not want to fully understand, they are fully satisfied not having a basic understanding of their beliefs. I cant make them understand. You cant make them understand. That is where my mother, my brother and lifelong friends WANT to be. Personal freedom to them is not more important than belonging to their church. I am ok with that. I will never stop fighting it but when I go to sleep at night I can accept that they have made their bed and are sleeping in it also.
There have always been churches, most likely always will be, people want to give away their personal freedom. They want to follow. Yeah, your story is tough. I have thought long and hard about if I had not been raised a jdub maybe I would have joined and then forced my kids into the cult like my mother did to me. Thank Allah that didnt happen. I am human... I learned from my own experience and mistakes and am moving forward. At the end of the day, what other option do we have?
Excellent conversation
pbrow
if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
Hey muddy (think i messed up with the quotes feature...
"I believe that JWism DOES steal people's lives. It seems like you may be minimizing the effects of "mental indoctrination" (read: brain-washing) where to even question the WT leaders is a sin. And on top of that, you are constantly told NOT to rely on your own wisdom, that your heart is tricky, that doubts come from Satan, that "independent" or critical thinking is a sin....
I am not minimizing the point we both agree with... JWism does indeed steal peoples lives. But it does so by voluntary compliance by the individual dubs. You could not have said it better in the quote above. Free people.... Mothers, fathers, relatives and friends willingly subject themselves to this idiot indoctrination, do not question it and fall in line. Born ins are fucked from the beginning but here in 'Merica we have the right to believe some fucked up things and to teach our kids fucked up things. I also say this knowing that born ins (first hand experience) are at an extreme disadvantage, although the drop out rate of born ins is very high! The cost of having thought police is too high of a price to pay.
And add this as well: the consequences of leaving the group can mean complete ostracization and losing your whole family and all your friends, perhaps your inheritance too.... This is not benign stuff.
Not benign at all!!! I, like you and many others feel the pain of this every day! It is fucking riduculous! But again, as hard as it is to hear over and over again, MY/YOUR parents, MY/YOUR family and MY/YOUR friends are choosing to believe something that directly goes against the principles that they think they stand for. They are choosing to remain in ignorance. Are they being assisted, misdirected? Of course they are! But again, the price of personal freedom is so precious that I cannot stand by while it is proposed to be given to a governmental authority that would regulate who can think what.
It takes a great deal to wear down the mental barriers and levels of corresponding fears/guilts/shames, etc., to reach a point of allowing oneself to even question the authority.
Amen to that! That is why I think it ok when people disrupt meetings (peacefully), why I try to instill my skepticism in my children, why I do not allow family members to shun me. Breaking down my own mental barriers (although indoctrinated by my mother and congregation but still my own nonetheless) took me 30 years!! But I did it.
I do not think many people are "born Free".... I think freedom and its concept is something one learns, and begins to appreciate and respect, both for oneself and others, the more time goes on. And that with freedom, comes responsibility and accountability. It is not always a gift unto itself. The more it is appreciated, the more it is valued. And in JW-land, freedom is not a concept one learns about in a personal way. Even the concept of freedom is defined by their terms and is always presented with their religious bias and agenda of the WT.
Very direct. I could not agree more. Be awake, move forward and help as many people as you can. This life has many challenges and opportunities. Very few are easy. Life is difficult. This is why personal accountability is so important. No apologies needed Muddy... we are both fighting against this religion, an example of the horrible remnants of our ignorant past.
pbrow
if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
I agree that financials should not be secret if they are getting tax exempt status. In fact, no religion should be tax exempt. I think it a plausible arguement that tax exemption for religions goes against the constitution (Im in the US)
Skedaddle... I too am a born in. My excuse of being brainwashed ended (legally) that is, when I turned 18. No doubt we were indoctrinated. I was so weak minded that it took me 12 more years to get out! That is on me. Who else was going to "do my thinking for me?" There is no other explanation for it... I was indocrinated yes, but only when I chose to think for myself was I able to get out. No one was going to change my mind until I did. It took raising two children in the church to wake me the fuck up! As much as I agree with you that dubs are indoctrinated, at the end of the day my mother, my brother, my aunts, uncles and grandparents are choosing to remain in, just as I chose to gtfo!
The members absolutely have the freedom to leave!! What those same people do not want though is to pay the cost for leaving. That is on them. That is life brother. I am not saying freedom of thought is easy or without pain but it is necessary pain. Some people actually do want someone else to do all their thinking for them. I hate the outcome as well so I fight it in the capacity I have.
Kid needs blood... absolutely the state should step in. Adult needs blood but refuses... that is on them. Hammer them on pedophilia, take away tax exempt status, ridicule them on doctrine (not the government but us) and try to enlighten as many as we can.
The last thing I am doing is pussy-footing around my rights! Again, who do you trust to be the thought police? We are on our own to think, for better or worse. It absolutely cannot be the government who censors our thoughts and beliefs. When the government becomes the censors in this context we are in deep trouble.
pbrow
if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
In my mothers mind it is worth the choice to shun me because the end goal is that she will live in paradise. I can disagree, I can argue with her but she is choosing to believe despite all the evidence. How could you possibly think it ok to ban her beliefs? So unless her beliefs are the same as yours then you would say they should be banned? What part of totalitorian or "thought crime" do you not understand? What thoughful person or group would you propose being in charge of banning ideas? I personally can think of NO ONE that I would want in charge of my view on how the world works.
pbrow
dear sisters,.
when you are fortunate enough to be in the presence of a jw penis you must take care to show the proper respect for it!
doesn't matter if said penis is prepubescent!
My daughter mentioned this a couple of days ago. I remembered that sisters had to wear head coverings if giving prayers or talks in the company of men but is this referring to something new?
pbrow
hey all,.
looking for a video i saw a while back.
it was a computer generated video w/ a computerized voice.
Hey guys... sorry for not getting back...
Thank you for the replies!!!
The bending truth video is the one I was looking for!
Thanks again!
pbrow
if someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
At the end of the day, jdubs do not steal peoples lives. Individuals choose to follow a set of beliefs. Individuals choose to shun family members. Individuals choose to withhold blood related medical treatment. Very painful i know but this is where personal accountability comes in and why it is so important to either get out completely and/or actively work at helping others to get out.
Religeous freedome is extremely important. Even more important though is the ability to question and rebel against religion.
pbrow
hey all,.
looking for a video i saw a while back.
it was a computer generated video w/ a computerized voice.
Hey all,
Looking for a video I saw a while back. It was a computer generated video w/ a computerized voice. From what i remember it talked about the connections made in the brain, especially when you are a born in and that is why its so difficult to break free. It was not specific to dubs. I think it was about 30 min long.
thanks for checking
pbrow
on my roku box, i went to the most popular channels and there sits jw.org.
it has a rating of 5 stars with over 43,000 reviews!
more than the nbc news channel, and more than the history channel.
I dont know what you are talking about????
You tell me what is not 5 stars about this....
