Giordano,
I showed this to my still in mother a few years back. When the elders found out she was still conversing with me she used this article with good affect.
As a side note, Ray Franz says that he was either the author or co-author (cant remember now) of that article and wanted to reflect a more christ like attitude towards df'd ones.
The argument "its in the watchtower, how can it be wrong?" is very compelling to cow eyed elders who do not have pre-written answers to that statement.
pbrow
sahs...
Exactly! When organizations such as the Watchtower corporation attempt to enforce their disingenuous and self-serving little rules upon their millions of mentally captive adherents, then they are, indeed, operating above the law – the basic law of the land which guarantees freedom from such egregious abuses of power.
They can attempt to enforce all they want. Each one of the "millions of metally captive adherents" is an individual who is making the choice to follow the rules. What they believe is irrelevant. Under law they have the choice. Adults who choose to live this way have chosen to live this way. The consequence of their choice is their burden to bare.
It seems to me, though, that an organization had ought to be held accountable for its policies that cause emotional damage to people
That is the difficulty here. The people inside need to wake up, make noise and demand change. Imagine if every person started making firm, prinicpled stands for the positions they were opposed to. In very short order the org would be a shell of its former self.
pbrow
all including wt prophets may be surprised.
right on djs ... As long as we have religious freedom (and im hoping that is for a long time) "what is written" will always be the more important question.
pbrow
i want to thank everyone for the support you give in this forum, i know i'm just one of many who feel this way.
i'm not just talking about feedback about my issues but overall i have leaned so much from what is said to help others who have/are leaving the wts.
i also want to add the ripple effect that what help one person here goes forward to everyone else in our lives!
I remember litterally spending solid weeks on this website when I started questoning.
This website has catalogued many, many stories of people at all phases of gaining their freedom. We can all learn a great deal from the genuine posts, from the troll filled posts and of course from Cofty's voluminous posts about evolution.
I have said it before but many thanks to Simon and the posters who have made this site what it is. My future and more importantly the future of my children owe a great debt of gratitude to this website.
Life is full of many "little" people who's good works will leave a positive impact on the lives of others. I admire the impact that men like Ray Franz, Simon or Paul Grundy have had on countless number of lives. You have much to be proud of.
Thank you!
pbrow
Exactly, they go to jail because they used physical pain to get what they want. Religions like the JWs and Scientologists use emotional pain to get what they want, making it comparably bad
We live in a culture of values. Our culture has determined that physical abuse cannot be tolerated. Extortion cannot be tolerated. By making the choice to extort or cause physical abuse you are also choosing the consequences of that choice.
But even religious freedom is supposed to have its limits, that limit is when it starts to encroach on the liberty of other people, or when it starts to harm other people who have not chosen to follow it. For example, in the United States one can't stone a gay person just because their religious text calls for it. (Not anymore anyway)
Religious freedom does have some limits. You are correct, you cannot stone someone (physical abuse again) Someone choosing to shun you is not them encroaching on your liberty, they are execising their own liberty. The bottom line is they have the right to shun you. If I do not want to talk to you, for religious or other reasons, I can refuse to talk to you. I can even use our secular court system to enforce that you dont talk to me.
The JW religion both harms those who no longer follow it, and it works against a current member's liberty to choose their own religion
I agree that it can harm former members but each member has the free will to walk out the door at any time. No ms, elder, co or governing body member can stop you from leaving or joining another church. They do not have ANY power over your free will. If you choose to stay because they guilt you or threaten to not talk to you again, then you are choosing to stay. But everyone needs to realize.... YOU CAN LEAVE ANYTIME YOU WANT TO! Taking control and responsibility of your own personal freedom is worth losing friends and family to me.
I make this arguement knowing full well that born-ins (like myself) have it extremely difficult when you are underage and the emotional blackmail does not stop when you turn 18. I get that. The good thing is that your free will is recognized by our secular society when you turn 18. You have the rest of your life to start exercising that free will and no religious group can take that away from you.(at least in the US)
pbrow
Well, couldn't that argument be applied to anything? "No officer, I didn't extort money from him, he just chose to keep his kneecaps intact, instead of keeping the money he had in his safe."
If you are taking a negative action against a certain behavior then you are enforcing against the behavior.
Yes!!! Anything!...... (to take your example.....now your going to be arrested)
The difference is our culture has deemed personal and religious freedom as being EXTREMELY important!
You and I have the choice to determine who we do and do not assoiciate with. You and I do NOT have the choice to determine who someone else can or cannot associate with.
The jdub orgainzation is simply making membership requirements. The individual dubs are choosing to be a part of that organization. That is their personal and religious freedom at work. Does it suck? You bet. Is it bullshit? You bet. Does it fuck the most important sub group of jdubs... born ins? ABSOLUTELY.
Everything comes with a price... Religious and personal freedom is very expensive... but it is worth every penny and more importantly every ounce of blood that was spilled for it.
At the end of the day.... dubs and other high control groups are choosing to cheapen the price of freedom and just give their choices away.
pbrow
edit... for the record, this is my 666 post.. praise allah!!
just needing a listening ear, so in advance thanks for being here, no one other than ex-jw's could understand.
they may try, but i think only a person who lived through it could know what's its really like.. i wish i could be supporting others here but i'm so broken myself i can't seem to do that yet.
i hope that will come in time though.. for now, i'm trying to undo the damage done to my family by the wts.
I second the comments about arriving here broken but more importantly letting go of the guilt. For far too long guilt guided all my choices as a jdub. Fuck the guilt.
While raising kids as jdubs certainly put unique strains on them life could have been much worse. If your kids left on their own they are way ahead of many of us here!! Good for them! You are out... good for you!! The first and most daunting step is over!
Besides shedding guilt, now you need to shed your well ingrained ideas of sin and the idea that living for yourself and kids is somehow displeasing to a diety.
Start being selfish now. You spent many years trying to please an organization. Focus on yourself and your kids. You can be mad or sad or whatever you want but use this freedom to start to focus on the the only life any of us really know that we have... THIS ONE!
Good luck and welcome.. you are welcome here... even if you dont beleive everything I or anyone else says here.
pbrow
Saeth... you are not wrong in that individuals can be df or da for openly associated with a df or da person. I would question you as to what you mean by "force"? The company is telling and individual... if you want to be a member you have to shun... So an individual has to say "i want to be a member therefore I am making the choice to shun this person" If they CHOOSE to shun then they have made a value judgement for themselves that being a member is more important than contact with the person who is to be shunned.
Continuing to place blame on a group when the responsibility belongs to the individual for making their own value judgement just seems pointless.
Your mother/father/sister/brother is making a value judgement that being a part of the group is more important than their relationship with you.
pbrow
If an individual values being a member of the jehovahs witnesses organization, shunning is a required in various degrees. My mother is a jdub who chooses to define shunning loosely.
This is the important part, that all of us do well to understand for our own benefit sooner rather than later..... Shunning is a choice made by individual jdubs that has a specific set of consequences. Choosing not to shun is also a choice made by individual jdubs that has a specific set of consequences.
If your family is shunning you it is because they value being a member of the group more then they value you as a person. They are not being forced to shun you, they are choosing to shun you.
There is enough shit in this world. Choose to divorce yourself from cancerous people wherever and whoever they are.
pbrow
just saw this commercial and was very impressed.
hoping more companies start doing the same.
most of us are immigrants.
Sir... not sure what your argument is...
people who take other peoples property are stealing...
people who cross legal boundaries are illegal immigrants...
both groups are people. both groups are doing something illegal
pbrow
