They are proud of not baptizing babies... because that is stooooopid!!
They are proud of responsible, thoughtful and intelligent 8 year olds who are willing to sign their life away to the group.....
HUGE difference here
Posts by pbrow
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16CHILD BAPTISM
by megabyte_vijay init is strange to read the last week watchtower that encouraging child/teenagers' baptism.
even jesus was baptised as his 30. jws encouraging marriages at an older age.
but why they are encouraging children to get baptised.
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150
I'm getting baptized
by BlackWolf ini know i've started similar topics before but this time i'm serious.
my parents have been constantly pressuring me and after yesterday's watchtower study they asked me if i was going to be baptized this summer... and i said yes.
i probably should have thought about it more before making a final decision, but they're pretty much forcing me to do it anyway.
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pbrow
I would be in the "dont do it" camp but I am not a 15 year old trapped in the situation you are in. I am 30+ who lives my own life.
Do what you need to do to survive but make the commitment that you will get out. Sometimes at such a young age we cannot see past tomorrow, next week or even next year. Baptised or not, you will get through this. You will face consequences both ways. The very fact that you are on this website shows that you are worlds away from where I was when I was 15. I had no idea there was life outside the bubble. You do and it is great! Buy your time, firm your resolve and do whatever you need to do to survive.
If you have to get baptized you will face very real consequences. If you dont get baptized you will face consequences. Be true to yourself always even if you have to "play a role" for others. Most importantly, remember that tomorrow is always coming, you have options, you will make new friends and you will get through this!
I do not know you but please know that you are loved.
pbrow
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25
Raising kids in a split faith household
by rathernotsay inhi guys, don't know if this is the right place to ask but id like to hear other peoples experiences with raising kids in a household with split faiths.
just for a bit of a back story, my wife and i have been married for comming up 6 years.
we have 3 kids, 2 boys aged 5 and 3 and a 8 week old girl.
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pbrow
Your situation does not sound like a run for the hills scenario. 67% of kids leave... across the board, that is kids that are in the bubble. If those kids have an a strong outlet for being normal kids (bursting the bubble) which you will give them, your odds will be better.
Allow sleepovers, allow sports, allow band, student council, girl and boy scouts and you will see how powerful bursting that bubble is.
You dont even need to push anti jdub stuff, you just need to reason on what they are learning at the kh and allow them to live normal lives. My children are early teens and already show an aversion to the dub lifestyle simply because I allow them to do things normal kids can do and I only have them 50% of the time.
Break the bubble and let the cards fall where they may.
Good luck,
pbrow
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4
Apostate Websites Direct Weak Ones Back To Jehovah"
by pbrow indoing a little thinking here, not really sure how the logistics work though.. lets say the link jw.org is posted here "x" number of times and numerous people click on said link.
it is my understanding the dubs can see how many hits they get from other websites but can they actually tell what websites the link is coming from?
if so..... i can picture a sunday talk given in the future... "apostate websites direct weak ones back to jehovah".
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pbrow
alcyone,
Thanks for the link... looks like they can! Awesome.... it looks like going to apostate websites can lead wayward sheep to the mother! ie... apostate sites are not that bad!
I cant wait for the talk!... although I will not hear it because I dont go anymore.
Hey crazyguy... they dont need help from me... they are doing pretty good without me. The people who fall for that propaganda are not who i am interested in.
pbrow
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4
Apostate Websites Direct Weak Ones Back To Jehovah"
by pbrow indoing a little thinking here, not really sure how the logistics work though.. lets say the link jw.org is posted here "x" number of times and numerous people click on said link.
it is my understanding the dubs can see how many hits they get from other websites but can they actually tell what websites the link is coming from?
if so..... i can picture a sunday talk given in the future... "apostate websites direct weak ones back to jehovah".
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pbrow
Doing a little thinking here, not really sure how the logistics work though.
Lets say the link jw.org is posted here "x" number of times and numerous people click on said link. It is my understanding the dubs can see how many hits they get from other websites but can they actually tell what websites the link is coming from? If so....
I can picture a sunday talk given in the future... "Apostate Websites Direct Weak Ones Back To Jehovah"
In the outline it will tell of the large number of subjects checking out jw.org directly after the viewing apostate websites. The idea being spouted from the stage of people going on apostate websites and then jw.org will subliminally put the idea that apostate websites are not so bad... after all, people are going to jw.org after viewing apostate websites.
This will in turn get more people to view apostate websites!
Does this seem simplistic or could that actually work?
pbrow
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47
My 14-year-old niece is being disfellowshipped
by keyser soze ini was contacted by my ex sister-in-law yesterday.
she asked me if i wanted to spend some time with my niece, while she went to her sister's baby shower.
it turns out my niece can't go because she's about to be disfellowshipped at the ripe old age of 14. .
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pbrow
I agree with nathan here. In the here and now her being shunned is tough. I think its great that you were asked to spend some time with her! The reality is she was raised as a dub. You have been given an opportunity!! Jump on that!
This is her life, accept it and move forward!
pbrow
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20
Fraud
by fulltimestudent inif someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
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pbrow
Fulltime,
Are all humans born with excellent reasoning abilities? My university study topic (this semester) has told me that humans are not good (naturally) at reasoning things out. So there's another opinion that is worth considering.
No definitely not but I would argue that they cannot be forced into getting excellent reasoning abilities. They have to be taught them and regretfully the fact is, if they are raised dubs they will not be taught reasoning abilities. Thats the stone cold reality that dubs, mormons and scientologist born ins are faced with.
In the congregations of JWs, that you my have associated with, were all the people in those congregations equal in thinking ability? I doubt that they were. My personal assessment is that in most of the congregations with which I was associated, more that 60% did not fully understand the reasons for their basic beliefs. More, why are most witnesses drawn from the lower socio-economic groups? These are the precise groups that may have lower reasoning abilities?
No they certainly are not. Here is where we seem to have the disagreement though. In a free society they have the right to be content in their ignorance. They do not want to fully understand, they are fully satisfied not having a basic understanding of their beliefs. I cant make them understand. You cant make them understand. That is where my mother, my brother and lifelong friends WANT to be. Personal freedom to them is not more important than belonging to their church. I am ok with that. I will never stop fighting it but when I go to sleep at night I can accept that they have made their bed and are sleeping in it also.
There have always been churches, most likely always will be, people want to give away their personal freedom. They want to follow. Yeah, your story is tough. I have thought long and hard about if I had not been raised a jdub maybe I would have joined and then forced my kids into the cult like my mother did to me. Thank Allah that didnt happen. I am human... I learned from my own experience and mistakes and am moving forward. At the end of the day, what other option do we have?
Excellent conversation
pbrow
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Fraud
by fulltimestudent inif someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
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pbrow
Hey muddy (think i messed up with the quotes feature...
"I believe that JWism DOES steal people's lives. It seems like you may be minimizing the effects of "mental indoctrination" (read: brain-washing) where to even question the WT leaders is a sin. And on top of that, you are constantly told NOT to rely on your own wisdom, that your heart is tricky, that doubts come from Satan, that "independent" or critical thinking is a sin....
I am not minimizing the point we both agree with... JWism does indeed steal peoples lives. But it does so by voluntary compliance by the individual dubs. You could not have said it better in the quote above. Free people.... Mothers, fathers, relatives and friends willingly subject themselves to this idiot indoctrination, do not question it and fall in line. Born ins are fucked from the beginning but here in 'Merica we have the right to believe some fucked up things and to teach our kids fucked up things. I also say this knowing that born ins (first hand experience) are at an extreme disadvantage, although the drop out rate of born ins is very high! The cost of having thought police is too high of a price to pay.
And add this as well: the consequences of leaving the group can mean complete ostracization and losing your whole family and all your friends, perhaps your inheritance too.... This is not benign stuff.
Not benign at all!!! I, like you and many others feel the pain of this every day! It is fucking riduculous! But again, as hard as it is to hear over and over again, MY/YOUR parents, MY/YOUR family and MY/YOUR friends are choosing to believe something that directly goes against the principles that they think they stand for. They are choosing to remain in ignorance. Are they being assisted, misdirected? Of course they are! But again, the price of personal freedom is so precious that I cannot stand by while it is proposed to be given to a governmental authority that would regulate who can think what.
It takes a great deal to wear down the mental barriers and levels of corresponding fears/guilts/shames, etc., to reach a point of allowing oneself to even question the authority.
Amen to that! That is why I think it ok when people disrupt meetings (peacefully), why I try to instill my skepticism in my children, why I do not allow family members to shun me. Breaking down my own mental barriers (although indoctrinated by my mother and congregation but still my own nonetheless) took me 30 years!! But I did it.
I do not think many people are "born Free".... I think freedom and its concept is something one learns, and begins to appreciate and respect, both for oneself and others, the more time goes on. And that with freedom, comes responsibility and accountability. It is not always a gift unto itself. The more it is appreciated, the more it is valued. And in JW-land, freedom is not a concept one learns about in a personal way. Even the concept of freedom is defined by their terms and is always presented with their religious bias and agenda of the WT.
Very direct. I could not agree more. Be awake, move forward and help as many people as you can. This life has many challenges and opportunities. Very few are easy. Life is difficult. This is why personal accountability is so important. No apologies needed Muddy... we are both fighting against this religion, an example of the horrible remnants of our ignorant past.
pbrow
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Fraud
by fulltimestudent inif someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
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pbrow
I agree that financials should not be secret if they are getting tax exempt status. In fact, no religion should be tax exempt. I think it a plausible arguement that tax exemption for religions goes against the constitution (Im in the US)
Skedaddle... I too am a born in. My excuse of being brainwashed ended (legally) that is, when I turned 18. No doubt we were indoctrinated. I was so weak minded that it took me 12 more years to get out! That is on me. Who else was going to "do my thinking for me?" There is no other explanation for it... I was indocrinated yes, but only when I chose to think for myself was I able to get out. No one was going to change my mind until I did. It took raising two children in the church to wake me the fuck up! As much as I agree with you that dubs are indoctrinated, at the end of the day my mother, my brother, my aunts, uncles and grandparents are choosing to remain in, just as I chose to gtfo!
The members absolutely have the freedom to leave!! What those same people do not want though is to pay the cost for leaving. That is on them. That is life brother. I am not saying freedom of thought is easy or without pain but it is necessary pain. Some people actually do want someone else to do all their thinking for them. I hate the outcome as well so I fight it in the capacity I have.
Kid needs blood... absolutely the state should step in. Adult needs blood but refuses... that is on them. Hammer them on pedophilia, take away tax exempt status, ridicule them on doctrine (not the government but us) and try to enlighten as many as we can.
The last thing I am doing is pussy-footing around my rights! Again, who do you trust to be the thought police? We are on our own to think, for better or worse. It absolutely cannot be the government who censors our thoughts and beliefs. When the government becomes the censors in this context we are in deep trouble.
pbrow
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Fraud
by fulltimestudent inif someone commits financial fraud, they commit a crime, and can be punished (jailed).. but if someone commits a religious fraud, western society does not see that as a crime.. on another thread, a poster pointed out that the jws, "literally steals peoples lives and causes horrendous damage.
of course, the jws are not the only religion to practise religious fraud.
all sorts of large and small religions make unverifiable promises and ask for financial support on the basis of their promises, which is precisely what financial defrauder does.
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pbrow
In my mothers mind it is worth the choice to shun me because the end goal is that she will live in paradise. I can disagree, I can argue with her but she is choosing to believe despite all the evidence. How could you possibly think it ok to ban her beliefs? So unless her beliefs are the same as yours then you would say they should be banned? What part of totalitorian or "thought crime" do you not understand? What thoughful person or group would you propose being in charge of banning ideas? I personally can think of NO ONE that I would want in charge of my view on how the world works.
pbrow