Posts by Hoffnung

259

The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

by FaceTheFacts in

during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

Hoffnung

FTF

"they are all interdependent, intertextual references to the seventy years. The point was: the Watchtower's exegesis of what the "servitude" and the "seventy years" meant is not simply a reading of Jeremiah 25:10-12 but it is the end result of interpreting several intertextual seventy year references."

You ignore the whole point: you need to know what Jeremiah wrote in ch. 25 to correctly understand 2 Chronicles 36 & Daniel 9, as this is the prophecy upon which the other 2 are based. However, when Jeremiah wrote his prophecy in ch. 25, the other 2 verses were not written yet, so a correct understanding of Jer 25 does not depend on Daniel 9 or 2 Chron. 26. So they are not interdependant, as you put it, the dependacy is only one-way. Jer 25 is sufficient as stand-alone text, unless you have an agenda of course. The only reason C.O. Jonsson mention it, because of the fabrications of people like you, and the society you want to defend.

Concerning LXX: why are you not providing a comparison text with the masoretic texts? you only provided different English translations of LXX, which is already a Greek translation from a different language, how old the translation is, does not take away that it is a translation, with its inaccuracies that come with any translation. I stand to the point, anything you want to prove upon that basis, is worthless if you choose to ignore what was written in the original language.

259

The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

by FaceTheFacts in

during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

Hoffnung

- 2 Chronicles 36:21 and Daniel 9:2 specifically refer to the 70 years of Jer 25, hence Jer 25 is required for a correct understanding of both verses, not the other way around. Jer 25 specifically states that the 70 years are for Babylon, not for Judah or Jerusalem. C.O.Jonsson is correct.

- LXX or the septuagint, is a translation made for a population of dispersed Jews in the hellenic empire who could not read there own language any more. It contains quite a few inaccuracies, more than on this point alone. I do not know what makes you believe that it "is far older and traditionally regarded as more accurate than the Masoretic text", but it is quite easy to prove it is an incorrect presentation of the facts. To drive the point home, the WTBS has all interest to present things the same way as you do, however they choose not do it, and stick to the more correct masoretic text. Any conclusion based upon the inaccurate rendering of the LXX without comparison with other renderings, removes your credibility and demonstrates you do not want to expose facts, but you are looking for elements that fit an interpretation you already hold, discarding everything that contradict it.

- If the point you try to prove in your 2nd part, holds any ground, than all the English translations of this verse would be incorrect. A lot of well educated people looked into the many renderings of this verse, before they wrote the translations as they did. Again you are not exposing any fact, but looking for elements that fit an interpretation you already hold.

Hoffnung

259

The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

by FaceTheFacts in

during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

Hoffnung

The Facts are quite easy, and confirmed by the insight book, under "Assyria". The 70 years of Jeremiah 25 indeed started at the 17th year of Nabopalassar, when he defeated the Assyrians in Haran. That is where they became the supreme power of the region and one after the other of the "surrounding nations" became vassal, or under servitude, of Babylon. The former supreme power was Assyria. It is telling you do not find this tidbit of info under "Babylon" in the it-book. A comprehensive list of the vassal nations you find in the 2nd part of Jeremiah 25, e.g. Elam = part of present day Iran. As the territory of all these surrounding nations is immensely vast, obviouly they did not become vassal nations at the same time, it required some time to bring the Babylonian armies to the nations. That, the by then sill crownprince, Nebuchadnezzar needed some time, estimated 4 years, to bring also Judah into this servitude, does not influence the starting point of the prophecy.

Face the Facts, Rolf Furuli tried the very same thing with the same kind of words as you do. His book did not convince anybody.

Hoffnung

9

October 15 Study WT, Page 17 Story: "Richard, Lowell, Ramon, Bill:" A Gay Subtext?

by Room 215 in

i don't now whether anyone else read that article, but several of the photos , and the comments under the subtitle "happy marriages" wherein the happy quartet suggested that they acceded to marriage only when uber-zealot females who took priority over physically attractive girls could be found.... made me wonder... hmmmm... .

Hoffnung

I can also confirm that Lowell has a son, Larry, definitely his son, and Lowell is indeed still married. the wife's name is Margareth by the way.

There are no rumours about them being gay around here.

Hoffnung

80

France : no more local bank accounts for congregations

by fifth.column in

i just joined a few days ago.

still in (physically, not mentally...) for family reasons... how many attendees at the kh in the same situation ?

currently living in france, wont say more on me for the moment.... .

Hoffnung

I confirm a similar move in the area where I am living, adminstered by the German branch, quite some months ago already. All congregations elders were called to attend a special meeting where members of the branch comite explained the society could put the EUROs on the savings accounts of congregations to better use, if it was handed over the society. the society obviously can use it to help congregations in need with the money. Obviously if the congreagtion would need the money back, it will be returned to the congo, but without interest of course.

A resolution to that effect was put to the congregation, and sailed true with 98% of the votes of course, and some 8000 euros were transferred to the society.

So let us say a congregation put aside 5000 EUR every year, for maintenance works and so on. if it hands it to the society, no interest will be added to it, meaning after 10 years, instead of having put aside 50.000 and gained another 10.000 or so by interest, thereby compensating for inflation, there is only 50.000 that will be returned, and due to inflation, you can do way less with this amount of money. To make up for this, you can request the society for a loan, and guess what, you need to pay interest on that one.

I tried to explain that to my parents in law, but it did not ring a bell.

Hoffnung

65

Calling all posters! What are YOUR questions for Candace Conti, Rick Simons and Kelly Kraetsch?

by cedars in

i am pleased to announce that candace conti, and her key lawyers rick simons and kelly kraetsch are planning a youtube video to answer any questions that people in our community may have regarding the recent conti v watchtower lawsuit.

i have offered to coordinate the gathering of these questions, and i thought it might be fun to do it in a "competition" style jwn thread, with the best answers being chosen by kelly, rick and candace to be addressed in the video.. as you can imagine, there are some provisos to this.... this is an active lawsuit, so for obvious legal reasons kelly, rick and candace will have the absolute and final decision as to which questions are answered and how much information is divulged when they are answered.we need the answers in the next 7 days, so the "cut off" for this competition is exactly 7 days from the time this thread goes live on jwn.we kindly request that all questions are asked in a respectful manner without any malicious or offensive intent.

any inappropriate questions will obviously be discarded and ignored.

Hoffnung

Why did they accept the reduction of punitive damages from 21.000.000 down to 8.000.000?

Why was the WTBS of Pennsylvania, together with more WT corporations, not sued as well?

Is the appeal going to be a complete re-trial, or is it up to the WTBS that some parts in the 1st trial violated some applicable laws?

how has the contact been with the lawyers from the WTBS and their legal team?

52

Update on Candace Conti's Case

by mind blown in

just ran upon this info:.

candace conti beats the watchtower society!submitted by teeny on august 27, 2012 - 9:22 pm .

http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/jw-lawsuits/candace-conti-beats-the-watchtower-society/?fb_action_ids=348543075229733&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366.

Hoffnung

It seems the attorneys of the WTBS made kind of a request that is not conforming to the law. that might be one little mistake too much from their side (hopefully)...

7

WT study today - Eph 1:8-10 - the administration, Stage 2

by Hoffnung in

in todays wt study (wt 15/jul/2012 p.27 paras 3-4), the society advances ephesians 1:10, which refers to an adminstration, that gathers the things in the heaven and on the earth.

whereas the bible clearly identifies a double purpose of the adminstration, there is no reason to believe there are also 2 different time frames intended, however the wt explains it this way.

we are actualliy in the adminstration stage 2, according to the wt.

Hoffnung

Hi Bobcat,

Thanks for replying. I indeed had not paid due attention to this word "again" in connection with the society's explanation of "the things in heaven" only applying to the 144.000, which indeed were never gathered before, and thus cannot be gathered again. So that point is sufficiently debunked, I would think.

It seems though that this administration stage 2 idea was never put like that by the WT before, and it seems they can or will use this as a justification for having an earthly organization or administration.

Hoffnung

7

WT study today - Eph 1:8-10 - the administration, Stage 2

by Hoffnung in

in todays wt study (wt 15/jul/2012 p.27 paras 3-4), the society advances ephesians 1:10, which refers to an adminstration, that gathers the things in the heaven and on the earth.

whereas the bible clearly identifies a double purpose of the adminstration, there is no reason to believe there are also 2 different time frames intended, however the wt explains it this way.

we are actualliy in the adminstration stage 2, according to the wt.

Hoffnung

In todays WT study (WT 15/JUL/2012 p.27 paras 3-4), the society advances Ephesians 1:10, which refers to an adminstration, that gathers the things in the heaven and on the earth. Whereas the bible clearly identifies a double purpose of the adminstration, there is no reason to believe there are also 2 different time frames intended, however the WT explains it this way. We are actualliy in the adminstration stage 2, according to the WT. Anyway, Is this verse providing an argument that can be used by JW that God would establish an organization on earth? I had a short look in threads from the past, but it seems this was never discussed on here.

THE ADMINISTRATION AND ITS WORK
3 Moses told the Israelites: “Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.” (Deut. 6:4) Jehovah’s actions and purpose are harmonious. Thus, “at the full limit of the appointed times,” God put into operation “an administration”— that is, an arrangement for unifying all his intelligent creatures. (Read Ephesians 1:8-10.) This administration will carry out its objective in two stages. The first stage prepares the congregation of anointed ones for life in heaven under Jesus Christ as their spiritual Head. This stage began at Pentecost 33 C.E. when Jehovah started to gather those who would rule with Christ in heaven. (Acts 2:1-4) Since the anointed have been declared righteous for life on the basis of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, they readily
acknowledge that they have been adopted as “God’s children.”—Rom. 3:23, 24; 5:1; 8:15-17.
4 The second stage prepares those who will dwell in Paradise on earth under Christ’s Messianic Kingdom. The “great crowd” make up the initial part of this group.

Ephesians 1:8-10: This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.

Hoffnung

2

Dr. Cathleen Mann Reviews Steven Hassans Latest (self-published) Book

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

steven hassan isn't always appreciated in the field of exit-counseling from cults.

since his third book came out, dr. cathleen mann wrote a somewhat harsh review of it that i felt necessary to respond to.

the article is at:.

Hoffnung

A little bit cheap to throw in lack of academic background in as a problem if Steven nowhere claims to have that background. His approach is highly experience based, or at least that is what I gleaned from his 1st 2 books. the critics seems more to be of the person than of the book, and that is not very professional from Mrs. Mann either. As far as I know there are not many other books that explain the issues at hand so well, and if Mrs. Mann is not aware of the cult-personality problem, maybe she lacks experience in the field, because I can testify that I have that problem.

Hoffnung