Hoffnung

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Posts by Hoffnung

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  259

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

  by FaceTheFacts in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

  naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

  the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

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  Hoffnung

  Sorry mate, I don't debate with liars.

  I have proven enough.

  Hoffnung
• 
  259

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

  by FaceTheFacts in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

  naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

  the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

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  Hoffnung

  You want to really know it, don't you. Let us, to demonstrate FTF's points hold no ground, and thereby also show FTF's dishonesty, provide the entire footnote 8 of C.O.Jonssons book, instead of the selections FTF made, and it shows that the conclusion based upon the LXX rendering of Jer 25 is plain incorrect, as it is a "defective translation" (society's own words in the Insight book):

  "The quotation is from The New World Translation (NW), which is based on the Hebrew Masoretic text (MT). The Greek Septuagint version (LXX) says: “and they will serve among the nations,” instead of: “and these nations wil1 have to serve the king of Babylon.” In Jeremiah 25:1–12 of the LXX, for some unknown reason, all references to Babylon and king Nebuchadnezzar are omitted. There are many differences between Jer-MT and Jer-LXX. Jer-LXX is about one-seventh shorter than Jer-MT, which contains 3,097 more words than Jer-LXX. A number of modem scholars hold that Jer-LXX was translated from a Hebrew text that was earlier than the text tradition represented by Jer-MT, arguing that Jer-MT represents a later revision and expansion of the original text, either by Jeremiah himself, his scribe Baruch, or some later editor(s). Thus, with respect to Jeremiah’s prediction that the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar would attack and destroy the kingdom of Judah, these scholars often find it difficult to believe that Jeremiah was able to give such concrete and specific forecasts. They find it easier to accept the more general and vague wordings of the Jer-LXX as representing the original prediction, with all references to Babylon and king Nebuchadnezzar being left out. However, some of the scholars who have adopted this view admit that it creates problems. If the original prophecy of Jeremiah 25:1–12, which was given in the fourth year of Jehoiakim and was presented to the king a few months later (Jeremiah 36:1–32), did not contain any references to Babylon and king Nebuchadnezzar, how then could Jehoiakim, after having listened to and burned up the roll with the prophecy, ask Jeremiah: “Why is it that you have written on it, saying: The king of Babylon will come without fail and will certainly bring this land to ruin and cause man and beast to cease from it?’ “ (Jeremiah 36:29, NW) As this same question is found both in Jer-MT and Jer-LXX, the original prophecy must have explicitly mentioned the king of Babylon. Professor Norman K. Gottwald cites this verse and says: “If the prophet had not somewhere in his scroll openly identified Babylon as the invader, the sharp retort of the king is difficult to explain.” (N. K. Gottwald, All the Kingdoms of the Earth. New York, Evanston, and London: Harper & Row, Publishers, 1964, p. 251.) This strongly indicates that Jer-MT might very well represent the original text here. It should be kept in mind that LXX is a translation made hundreds of years after the time of Jeremiah from a Hebrew text that is now lost, and, as the editors of Bagster’s The Septuagint Version of the Old Testament point out in the “Introduction,” some of the translators of the LXX were not competent to their task and often inserted their own interpretations and traditions. Most scholars agree with this observation. The Watch Tower Society, too, emphasizes that “the Greek translation of this book [Jeremiah] is defective, but that does not lessen the reliability of the Hebrew text.”—Insight an the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 1988, p. 32.

  It is now very clear for all to see FTF only selected what fitted his ideas and ignored all the rest. Any conclusion based upon the LXX translation of Jer 25 is looking for trouble. Exegesis of LXX jer 25? who are you trying to fool mate...

  Hoffnung
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  259

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

  by FaceTheFacts in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

  naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

  the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

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  Hoffnung

  FTF

  "they are all interdependent, intertextual references to the seventy years. The point was: the Watchtower's exegesis of what the "servitude" and the "seventy years" meant is not simply a reading of Jeremiah 25:10-12 but it is the end result of interpreting several intertextual seventy year references."

  You ignore the whole point: you need to know what Jeremiah wrote in ch. 25 to correctly understand 2 Chronicles 36 & Daniel 9, as this is the prophecy upon which the other 2 are based. However, when Jeremiah wrote his prophecy in ch. 25, the other 2 verses were not written yet, so a correct understanding of Jer 25 does not depend on Daniel 9 or 2 Chron. 26. So they are not interdependant, as you put it, the dependacy is only one-way. Jer 25 is sufficient as stand-alone text, unless you have an agenda of course. The only reason C.O. Jonsson mention it, because of the fabrications of people like you, and the society you want to defend.

  Concerning LXX: why are you not providing a comparison text with the masoretic texts? you only provided different English translations of LXX, which is already a Greek translation from a different language, how old the translation is, does not take away that it is a translation, with its inaccuracies that come with any translation. I stand to the point, anything you want to prove upon that basis, is worthless if you choose to ignore what was written in the original language.
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  259

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

  by FaceTheFacts in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

  naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

  the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

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  Hoffnung

  - 2 Chronicles 36:21 and Daniel 9:2 specifically refer to the 70 years of Jer 25, hence Jer 25 is required for a correct understanding of both verses, not the other way around. Jer 25 specifically states that the 70 years are for Babylon, not for Judah or Jerusalem. C.O.Jonsson is correct.

  - LXX or the septuagint, is a translation made for a population of dispersed Jews in the hellenic empire who could not read there own language any more. It contains quite a few inaccuracies, more than on this point alone. I do not know what makes you believe that it "is far older and traditionally regarded as more accurate than the Masoretic text", but it is quite easy to prove it is an incorrect presentation of the facts. To drive the point home, the WTBS has all interest to present things the same way as you do, however they choose not do it, and stick to the more correct masoretic text. Any conclusion based upon the inaccurate rendering of the LXX without comparison with other renderings, removes your credibility and demonstrates you do not want to expose facts, but you are looking for elements that fit an interpretation you already hold, discarding everything that contradict it.

  - If the point you try to prove in your 2nd part, holds any ground, than all the English translations of this verse would be incorrect. A lot of well educated people looked into the many renderings of this verse, before they wrote the translations as they did. Again you are not exposing any fact, but looking for elements that fit an interpretation you already hold.

  Hoffnung
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  259

  The Gentile Times Reconsidered (607 B.C.E.) -Part A1 - Jeremiah 25:10-12 Reviewed

  by FaceTheFacts in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  during the last three to four months, i have spent a great deal of time sinking my teeth into various critical biblical commentaries and lexicons.

  naturally, after beginning to research "the truth about the truth" one of the most commonplace yet controversial arguments revolve around the "gentile times" doctrine (i.e.

  the application of the seven times of daniel 4 from 607 b.c.e.

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  Hoffnung

  The Facts are quite easy, and confirmed by the insight book, under "Assyria". The 70 years of Jeremiah 25 indeed started at the 17th year of Nabopalassar, when he defeated the Assyrians in Haran. That is where they became the supreme power of the region and one after the other of the "surrounding nations" became vassal, or under servitude, of Babylon. The former supreme power was Assyria. It is telling you do not find this tidbit of info under "Babylon" in the it-book. A comprehensive list of the vassal nations you find in the 2nd part of Jeremiah 25, e.g. Elam = part of present day Iran. As the territory of all these surrounding nations is immensely vast, obviouly they did not become vassal nations at the same time, it required some time to bring the Babylonian armies to the nations. That, the by then sill crownprince, Nebuchadnezzar needed some time, estimated 4 years, to bring also Judah into this servitude, does not influence the starting point of the prophecy.

  Face the Facts, Rolf Furuli tried the very same thing with the same kind of words as you do. His book did not convince anybody.

  Hoffnung
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  9

  October 15 Study WT, Page 17 Story: "Richard, Lowell, Ramon, Bill:" A Gay Subtext?

  by Room 215 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i don't now whether anyone else read that article, but several of the photos , and the comments under the subtitle "happy marriages" wherein the happy quartet suggested that they acceded to marriage only when uber-zealot females who took priority over physically attractive girls could be found.... made me wonder... hmmmm... .

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  Hoffnung

  I can also confirm that Lowell has a son, Larry, definitely his son, and Lowell is indeed still married. the wife's name is Margareth by the way.

  There are no rumours about them being gay around here.

  Hoffnung
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  80

  France : no more local bank accounts for congregations

  by fifth.column in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i just joined a few days ago.

  still in (physically, not mentally...) for family reasons... how many attendees at the kh in the same situation ?

  currently living in france, wont say more on me for the moment.... .

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  Hoffnung

  I confirm a similar move in the area where I am living, adminstered by the German branch, quite some months ago already. All congregations elders were called to attend a special meeting where members of the branch comite explained the society could put the EUROs on the savings accounts of congregations to better use, if it was handed over the society. the society obviously can use it to help congregations in need with the money. Obviously if the congreagtion would need the money back, it will be returned to the congo, but without interest of course.

  A resolution to that effect was put to the congregation, and sailed true with 98% of the votes of course, and some 8000 euros were transferred to the society.

  So let us say a congregation put aside 5000 EUR every year, for maintenance works and so on. if it hands it to the society, no interest will be added to it, meaning after 10 years, instead of having put aside 50.000 and gained another 10.000 or so by interest, thereby compensating for inflation, there is only 50.000 that will be returned, and due to inflation, you can do way less with this amount of money. To make up for this, you can request the society for a loan, and guess what, you need to pay interest on that one.

  I tried to explain that to my parents in law, but it did not ring a bell.

  Hoffnung
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  65

  Calling all posters! What are YOUR questions for Candace Conti, Rick Simons and Kelly Kraetsch?

  by cedars in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i am pleased to announce that candace conti, and her key lawyers rick simons and kelly kraetsch are planning a youtube video to answer any questions that people in our community may have regarding the recent conti v watchtower lawsuit.

  i have offered to coordinate the gathering of these questions, and i thought it might be fun to do it in a "competition" style jwn thread, with the best answers being chosen by kelly, rick and candace to be addressed in the video.. as you can imagine, there are some provisos to this.... this is an active lawsuit, so for obvious legal reasons kelly, rick and candace will have the absolute and final decision as to which questions are answered and how much information is divulged when they are answered.we need the answers in the next 7 days, so the "cut off" for this competition is exactly 7 days from the time this thread goes live on jwn.we kindly request that all questions are asked in a respectful manner without any malicious or offensive intent.

  any inappropriate questions will obviously be discarded and ignored.

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  Hoffnung

  Why did they accept the reduction of punitive damages from 21.000.000 down to 8.000.000?

  Why was the WTBS of Pennsylvania, together with more WT corporations, not sued as well?

  Is the appeal going to be a complete re-trial, or is it up to the WTBS that some parts in the 1st trial violated some applicable laws?

  how has the contact been with the lawyers from the WTBS and their legal team?
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  52

  Update on Candace Conti's Case

  by mind blown in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  just ran upon this info:.

  candace conti beats the watchtower society!submitted by teeny on august 27, 2012 - 9:22 pm .

  http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/jw-lawsuits/candace-conti-beats-the-watchtower-society/?fb_action_ids=348543075229733&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366.

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  Hoffnung

  It seems the attorneys of the WTBS made kind of a request that is not conforming to the law. that might be one little mistake too much from their side (hopefully)...
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  7

  WT study today - Eph 1:8-10 - the administration, Stage 2

  by Hoffnung in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in todays wt study (wt 15/jul/2012 p.27 paras 3-4), the society advances ephesians 1:10, which refers to an adminstration, that gathers the things in the heaven and on the earth.

  whereas the bible clearly identifies a double purpose of the adminstration, there is no reason to believe there are also 2 different time frames intended, however the wt explains it this way.

  we are actualliy in the adminstration stage 2, according to the wt.

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  Hoffnung

  Hi Bobcat,

  Thanks for replying. I indeed had not paid due attention to this word "again" in connection with the society's explanation of "the things in heaven" only applying to the 144.000, which indeed were never gathered before, and thus cannot be gathered again. So that point is sufficiently debunked, I would think.

  It seems though that this administration stage 2 idea was never put like that by the WT before, and it seems they can or will use this as a justification for having an earthly organization or administration.

  Hoffnung