Posts by Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

"when attempting to make sense of the text."

Kyrios as Greek word makes sense to me. Not many attempts are needed to translate it correctly as "lord".

Hope you still have an example that can shed some light.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

To come to a correct translation concerning this issue, actually it does not matter what your personal opinion on the issue is. If you want to make a TRANSLATION of the NT, you can only translate what was written in the Greek text. As there is not a single Greek NT text with the name Jehovah or the Tetragrammaton, you cannot use it in a translation either.

If you want to use the name Jehovah, your bible should be called an interpretation and not a translation. That is the case until the 1st Greek text with the name Jehovah is found, which did not happen in the last 1500 years.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

and for Davidl7,

I would like to point out to the verses I quoted from the Greek Scriptures where "Jehovah" was inserted in places where it definitely does not belong. (mostly as a reply to Slimboyfat). None of the explanations given by you about this subjects adresses that issue. There are no quotes of the Hebrew Scriptures near to this verses at all. And these are just a sample, there are many more verses like these.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

Hello Bobby, (if this your name)

Thanks for the reply, and apologies to the others that we side tracked a little this thread.

You wrote: "If you examine the use of the word "earth" in Revelation, it is clear that the present physical earth (prior to the recreation) is being described. It would be an wrong to teach as anything but assumption, that the new earth will not be literal as well."

That is a nice starting point, but unfortunately there was not even one scripture quoted from Revelation to support this. My arguments, that Revelation 21 stated that there is no sun or moon, and no night that give light to this new earth, and from revelation 22 about the river of water of life that flows from Gods throne in heaven from outer space onto the new earth were not adressed.

And then you went on to say: "BTW the concept of a new heavens and a new earth is not only found in Revelation."

And you quoted mostly Hebrew scriptures for that support. Which speak about a hope and belief system that Jesus has replaced by something way better. Concerning the verses in Romans 8 & 2 Pet 3:13, there is nothing in there either that points to a literal earth.

Both Jesus and Paul said and wrote, that in order to inherit the Kingdom of God, one would have to lay down his physical body and take up a spiritual one. To be very honest, I do not understand all the details of what this brings along either, but that is how the Greek Scriptures and the hope therein come to me.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

By the way, interesting rendering of Revelation 21: 3, 4 in the NIV: And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them.

Can God dwell among people with a physical body, exposing them to his radiant glory? The chance of them surviving this is quite small. One more reason why the resurrection is with a spiritual body, and not with flesh and bones.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

Hello Vanderhoven,

Good point you make, and I am glad you bring it up. The question is not "Who do you think is going to live on the new earth?", but, is this "new earth" also the "literal earth" as we know it? Because if it cannot positively identified with the "literal, material earth", then there is no reason to believe that the paradise will be on this "literal" earth either. The context of this chapter (Rev 20:11 - 22:5) gives a few enlightening statements:

When the devil is hurled in the lake of fire Rev 20:11 reads (NWT): "And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them". If the "old" earth fled away, is it likely we will live upon it, or that the paradise will be made upon it? I don't think so. Nowhere in chapter 21 the "old" or literal, material earth" is coming back. In the last part of ch 21 and beginning of ch 22 the holy city Jerusalem, the new temple and the river of water of life is shown, and they are all connected together in John's vision. The river was "flowing out from the throne of God (which is in heaven) and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its broad way (of the holy city jerusalem, which has descended from heaven Rev 21:2). And on this side of the river and on that side [there were] trees of life producing t welve crops of fruit, yielding their fruits each month. And the leaves of the trees [were] for the curing of the nations. (which are living on the "new earth").

Do you estimate it for normal that a river of water flows from heaven onto the literal earth? It is quite obvious that the language used for "new heaven" and "new earth" is highly symbolic, referring to the place where the newly resurrected live, but as no river of water flows from outer space onto the earth, a literal earth is not a possibility.

Furthermore, Rev 21: 23, 24 states there is no need for light of the sun or moon, and the night does not exist, things you would expect there to be on a literal earth. It reads in the NWT: "And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. 24 And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there." Furthermore, no physical person can whitstand the glory of God and yet live (remember Moses), and therefore I don't think the resurrection is in the flesh.

All these verses tell me John was not writing about a literal earth, and hence, Revelation 21:3, 4 cannot be used to advocate life in a paradise on earth. Looking forward to your rebuttal.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

Thank for the reply. However, nowhere is it stated in the Greek Scriptures that Jesus did not have angels under his command, rather the opposite. Hence "the angel of the Lord" should not be interpreted automatically as "the angel of Jehovah".

The invalidity of your 2nd point about "the word of the lord" is illustrated in 1 Thess 4:15, 16 (NWT): "For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." Greek word Kurios in all 3 occurences.

How do you understand these verses if you replace "Jehovah" by "Lord"? If "the presence of the Lord" is clearly identifying Jesus, and if the descendance from heaven from the Lord is also about Jesus, is it not a correct conclusion that "the word of the Lord" in this verse, is the word of Jesus as well?

Let us take a few more occurences:

Acts 6:59, 60 (NWT): And they went on casting stones at Stephen as he made appeal and said: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then, bending his knees, he cried out with a strong voice: “Jehovah, do not charge this sin against them.” And after saying this he fell asleep [in death].

Which Ot verse is quoted here? If Stephen appealed to Jesus in verse 59, was he not appealing to Jesus either in verse 60? (Greek word Kurie both occurences)

Acts 13:1-12 - in the NWT, Jehovah occurs 4 times (v2,10, 11 & 12), and there is not even one of them a quotation or anything else that could identify either Jehovah or Jesus. Why is Jehovah used in the NWT?

Acts 21:14, (NWT), Then Paul answered: “What are YOU doing by weeping and making me weak at heart? Rest assured, I am ready not only to be bound but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 When he would not be dissuaded, we acquiesced with the words: “Let the will of Jehovah take place.”

Greek word Kurios in both occurences. If Paul refers to Jesus as the Lord in v.13, is Jesus also the Lord in v.14? If this was not intended, would the writer not have written "God" instead?

If you want some more examples, please let me know.

Hoffnung

220

2011 Watchtower publisher statistics with analysis

by jwfacts in

the 2012 yearbook has released the publisher statistics for the 2011 service year.

a scan of the report can be found at http://www.jwfacts.com/images/2011-publisher-report.pdf and i have started updating the graphs at http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/statistics.php.

as expected, it is following on from similar trends to the last 15 years.

Hoffnung

Interesting discussion to follow.

To come back on Slimboyfat, regarding the use of Jehovah or Yahweh in the New Testament, it might be argumented that this is not incorrect to insert the name in quotations of the Hebrew Scriptures. However, of the 237 occurences in the New World Translations, not even HALF of these are quotations. Hence it can only be called an alteration of the text. This becomes very apparent from Acts onwards. In many cases, replacing 'Jehovah' with the original word from the Greek Text (mostly Kyrios), will identify it clearly with Jesus. That this definitely has an influence on meaning and understanding is obvious, and it has to be condemned.

One question I have for David, if you believe that many came to the same understanding like the Witnesses by reading the bible alone. It has to be said that more religions teach that Jesus is not the Almighty God, that he is not part of a Trinity and that there is no such thing like an immortal soul. However, very few teach an resurrection and life in paradise on earth. Not even the Witnesses for a long time in their existence. So this is my challenge for David: please prove from the Greek Scriptures alone (because Christ removed the Mosaic law as he fullfilled it), the earthly hope of life forever in paradise. Nobody who reads the Greek Scriptures by himself will come to this conclusion. Good luck.

Hoffnung

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

Hoffnung

Hello Flame,

You are not the 1st one with this question, nor will you be the last.

Actually, AGuest is answering your questions quite well, and I would like to encourage you to browse through her many contributions on this site. Even if you might not understand everything, it will enlighten your understanding. I add a few ideas if I may.

The belief system that Christ started, was not centrally organized. A contextual reading of Acts 15, will show you that it was a group of elders of the local congregation of Antiochia, had problems with the teachings from another local congregation, Jerusalem. To sort matters out, a delegation was sent to Jerusalem, where the 2 groups came to the conclusion to solve it. Nothing more, nothing less. Early christians met in local congregations, they had elders which they choose themselves, and did not have pioneers, circuit overseers or anything like it.

The early christians did NOT preach from door-to-door. Christ, Paul and others went to open places like synaguoges and market places. The majority of the christians though, did NEVER engage in any formal way of preaching. The great progress was caused by the message going from mouth-to-mouth publicity, informal preaching if you like. This formula still works best, even nowadays.

The real instructions from Jesus, you find in Matthew 25:34-36:

34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.’

James repeated a similar message in James 1:27: The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world. How you give this an actual meaning in your life is entirely up to you.

One thing is for sure, you cannot do this fully as a Jehovah's Witness. The constant pushing to preach and to engage in other not very valuable activities will keep you away from what really matters. The Society is constantly bashing other churches for their efforts to help other people, instead of preaching, but this is exactly what Jesus commanded us to do.

If you want to do what the bible says, and you do not want to it on your own, you have to find another group of people that wants to do it too. Whether that is in an existing church or not, is your choice. Most important is that this group of people does not force their dogma and understanding upon you, that you are free to read and understand the bible as it comes to you. This is impossible as long as you are an active Witness. I hope I was able to give you some answers.

Hoffnung