This is very interesting idea, I was just thinking about the same concept today. I’m an ex-dub and having gone through my own journey to seek knowledge I wound up with my own blend of outlook, mostly consisting of Gnostic type mindsets. I’d like to agree with Tec, “Indoctrination is different than belief in a creator.” I also think Unshackled nails it on the head here, “Before anyone could start to believe in a spirit creator, someone would have to come up with the idea. Would someone? And if so, would the people of this forum eventually end up in their same stance as now?” I theorize that with the lack indoctrination someone, somewhere would eventually ask questions. We would eventually ponder the why and how of the ecosystem, animals, plants and stars. This simple wonder is what eventually leads to the formation of religious ideology. The outcome, I believe, would be the same in that “religious beliefs” would evolve, but you would just be hitting the reset button with amnesia and the specifics of those beliefs would turn out to be something new or different than what we have in today’s world. I don’t think this is a debate on rational thought vs. irrationality, those concepts are still self-created, even the scientific method is a human concept communicated and agreed on by human created language. The trouble is we are locked inside our own minds and no matter the level of rational thought we still ponder how things came to be. I think we have a tendency to wonder about it because, unlike our language, clothes, buildings, and our science, we didn’t create this world around us. So ultimately we would still have groups of believers and non believers trying to find harmony, in short only the explanations would change.
rvalich
JoinedPosts by rvalich
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53
Theism or Atheism? If you awoke with amnesia tomorrow...
by unshackled in...and therefore had to start from scratch, do you think you'd arrive at your same current stance on belief or non-belief in god?
why or why not?.
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Catch 22?
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logical problem with jw/christians:.
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rvalich
Lols at Sir82, I love that. Also about Tec's comment, I believe both to be true. I'm a believer in creation through evolution, and that heaven and hell are spiritual places within the mind. I just thought this whole idea was funny because it seems to me my still JW friends ignore the reality in front of them. He said that weed and psychadellics and cocaine won't exist in the New System because God will just zap anyone who tries to use them. As if they were created by humans, as if God sits around all day comsumed with people doing drugs He created. It's all so illogical, and what is more, dangerous because their minds are replacing reality with some messed up version. Sure we do things to intensify the drugs, but alcohol is a natural function, so are psychadellic mushrooms and all those things. How can we be held responsible for things we didn't even make? Psh, it never stops amazing me.
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Catch 22?
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logical problem with jw/christians:.
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rvalich
Logical problem with JW/Christians:
Snakes/scorpions have venom, poison constructed for the purpose of killing. Violence in nature, death. If God didn’t design these things this way, then they EVOLVED when sin came in? So then you believe in evolution and not creation? Or do you believe that God designed these things to kill each other? Is that a logical check mate?
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Does God Create Evil?
by rvalich inthe view held by christian theology is that god did not create evil.
you may argue this point using scripture to support either side.
however that argument is but a symptom of a much larger problem which is choice and free will.. the concept among christians is that sin, suffering, and evil deeds began with the original sin.
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rvalich
The view held by Christian theology is that God did not create evil. You may argue this point using scripture to support either side. However that argument is but a symptom of a much larger problem which is choice and “free will”.
The concept among Christians is that sin, suffering, and evil deeds began with the “original sin”. The original sin was supposedly Adam and Eve’s disobedience, which is incorrect. The original sin started with Satan first, and then Adam and Eve second.
Using biblical logic we can see that God did not stop Satan from disobeying, he merely punishes or will punish Satan. God allowed Satan a choice. Satan in turn proposed that choice to Adam and Eve. Through their actions suffering and evil entered the world of man. The suffering and evil did not originate in reality with Adam and Eve. It originated when God allowed Satan a choice. Satan was supposedly the first creature to disobey. It is only in the world of humans that Adam and Eve were responsible for evil spreading, but Satan, using his option given by God, created evil.
Ultimately God allows choice or “free will”.
The bible shows Satan created evil when he exercised his free will to oppose God. That choice that Satan took was offered to him by God. Both God and Satan are necessary ingredients in the creation of evil.
This is the most important concept and the origin of Gods involvement with the creation or allowance of evil.
If God created everything then he also created choice, or “free will”, and the ability to act upon that choice, as Satan demonstrated, which creates evil. He allows the capacity for disobedience and sin. Evil is a choice that was made by Satan given to him by God. Satan could never have made that choice if God hadn’t given it to him or allowed it in the same way God gave it to Adam and Eve.
God must have created and allowed the ability for the two options prior to Satan’s choosing.
The problem is as follows. In a world with options, someone will take those options. It is in the free will and choices that exists good or bad. In order for the world to be without bad things, the option must be removed or blocked.
Mostly the objection to this idea is that people think without the option to disobey you aren’t truly free, and God of course wants us to be free. God does not want to force us to obey him. This is faulty logic simply because we are not, and have never been, as humans, truly free.
I can not transform myself into a dinosaur. I am limited by the laws of physics, nature, and biology. We are not and have never been, as humans, truly free.
This is not a bad thing. Without the option of exercising evil you are no more limited in any capacity than you were before, in fact you would be better off without that option. You have unlimited other options, why would the removal of the ability to choose evil be equated to slavery?
Do we truly need the choice to produce evil things for us to be “free”?
God is very busy in punishing the wicked. Punishment is a negative thing full of sorrow, guilt, and suffering. God participates in punishment, pain, and suffering. He also continues the evil by allowing the choice for disobedience in turn causing him to create Hell, destroy cities, and bring death as righteous punishment.
My real point is not to challenge the authenticity of the Christian God’s existence, but to point to the idea that people do not know the God they choose to worship. Also that the bible is full of problematic theologies and concepts which create these imbalances in the image we create of God.
The short answer to the question on both counts is yes. Through choice God creates evil.
If God created everything, then anything that is possible, or anything that exists, must have been created by God.