John_Mann

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Posts by John_Mann

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  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

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  John_Mann

  "There's no absolute."

  ( the statement above is the ONLY exception)
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  20

  Death and Judgement Day

  by Tirisilex in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm having a hard time with this.

  what does the bible say what happens when you die?

  when jesus was on the cross he said to the man that when he dies he will be with jesus in heaven.

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  John_Mann

  If you not believe in purgatory so you believe Jesus went to hell and preached to demons.

  Hell is the very absence of God. So Jesus is not God?

  The verdict of the two judgements is equal.

  The difference being one particular and another public, with Christ presence. And after that the souls will be reunited with the bodies (maximizing the verdict).

  There's no second chance after death. Your destiny is eternally fixed. Purgatory is not a second chance. We have infinite opportunities to repent while on earth but after death there's no more chances.
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  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

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  John_Mann

  You're right about Protestantism. The Bible read with the Sola Scriptura makes no sense.

  Jews wrote the OT in a dramatic way with a lot of exaggeration. Just like special effects to make a lasting impression. It was their writing style.

  Catholics do not read the Bible as Protestants (and Atheists). We consider the OT primarily as historical waiting for Jesus. History show us that some accounts is literally impossible.

  Every battle and genocide is a symbol for our inner faith struggles.

  Catholicism is not founded on Bible. The NT is a product of Catholicism. Outside Catholicism the Bible is pure nonsense.

  Amazing how Atheists here seems just to take the Sola Scriptura approach. If Sola Scriptura is the only approach so I'm an Atheist too.
• 
  20

  Death and Judgement Day

  by Tirisilex in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm having a hard time with this.

  what does the bible say what happens when you die?

  when jesus was on the cross he said to the man that when he dies he will be with jesus in heaven.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  There's two judgements.

  When you die you receive a particular judgement immediately. This judgement is kind of automatic.

  In the last judgement we'll receive a public judgement in the presence of Jesus Christ.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  We believe humans are not just material bodies and not spiritual beings neither.

  Humans are the very union of a spiritual soul and a material body. Two different natures forming the unique human nature. And the soul is created at the moment of conception and is destined to be mysteriously united to a body.

  Humans are not bodies and are not souls. Humans have bodies and souls.

  And we believe the ultimate destiny of humans is to have an eternal union of body and soul.

  The ultimate free intentions of the soul will define its eternal destiny with the body.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  As I understand it, Catholics hold that life is sacred from conception. How do you disprove that objectively? Or do you describe their opposition differently?

  Yes, we believe that the soul is directly created and infused by God in the very moment of conception.

  It's not about the embryo having a neural system or not or ability to feel pain. It's about the soul already created.
  
  
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

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  John_Mann

  Cofty

  It's not minutiae but the very premises you're using.

  I cannot accept your conclusions without accepting every premise.

  This is basic debating.

  Our minds simply have in-built absolute values of morality.

  Morality does not come from religion, because you don't need religion to dictate universal moral values.

  Religion is the quest of why we possess such absolutes naturally attached in our minds. And how to explain and develop them. Of course religion copes with revelations about these in-built features too.

  Think religion as reverse engineering. That's why there's so much religions but Jesus established a very practical test to use about the several religions. He told about their fruits or if it works in the reverse engineering approach.

  That's why I previously said about the logical internal consistency in Catholicism. JWism has no consistency for instance.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

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  John_Mann

  using simple geometric principles

  Simple geometric principles does not exist in nature. You never saw a point, line or a plane.

  These concepts are only in our minds. Or are only accessible with our minds. You can't even define them so why they're called "undefined terms".

  Your mind simply know these concepts. You never learnt how to access or define them, is an in-built feature in our minds.
  
  
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

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  3. 
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  John_Mann

  Yes, I want a sincere conversation.

  So I'm arguing about your first premise: objectiveness is different from absoluteness.

  You'd put this premise as base of your OP.

  But you failed to show how is possible something be objective without absolute references.
• 
  210

  Morality Without Deity

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  one of the most persistent arguments for belief in god centres on the necessity of an ultimate law-giver and epitome of goodness.. a softer version is seen in the genuine concern that a loss of faith will result in a corresponding loss of a moral compass - a more strident argument links the existence of good and evil with proof of the reality of god.

  it is often asserted that without god, moral decisions degenerate to nothing more than personal preferences and the victory of "might is right".. i want to succinctly lay out my response as an atheist, and show that a supreme being is not required for objective morality.. it is helpful to distinguish between absolute morality, objective morality and subjective morality.

  christian apologists frequently conflate the first two, and secular debaters often fail to point out the difference.. theists who disagree on everything else, are unanimous that god is perfectly good.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  John_Mann

  Sorry but there's an absolute (very narrow) range in values of health data.